Posts by PetrW

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

PetrW

@SB

As a side note on the creation of the state of Israel: according to a book by Pawel Sudoplatow (who was head of the subversion and intelligence department of the Russian NKVD/KGB in the 1940s and 1950s), the decision to create the state of Israel was made by negotiations between the three powers: the USA, England and the USSR sometime around 1943. The Russians proposed Crimea. It was a cold political calculation, because during WWII they were trying to raise money from wealthy Jewish groups - in return for a promise that the Russians would support the creation of a Jewish state. So Israel could have been in Russia. Then after the war, the US and England, broke their agreements with the USSR and supported a Palestinian version of a Jewish state. Again, the Russians were tactical because they (correctly) believed that if they did not prevent the creation of Israel in Palestine, then the anti-British, anti-Israel, Arab states would become natural allies of the USSR.

My point is that the creation of Israel in 1948 (at the start of the Cold War) was more the result of power struggles than God directing Stalin's tactics. To see in Stalin, some kind of modern Cyrus the Great liberating the Jews, I don't know ... ???

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@Hi Kosonen,

On the question of chronology, we are in full agreement. Surely the Beast will not be here for 100+ years. It is explicitly stated to be 42 months (Rev. 17:8).

Now the question of the identity of the Beast of chapters 13 and 17.

I think they are one and the same Beast based on these Bible passages: The dragon, Satan, is described in Rev. 12:3 as a seven-headed beast, with ten horns, wearing ten diadems on his head. In Rev. 13:1, the beast is described in much the same way: only the 10 diadems are on ten horns. But since it is explained in Daniel and Revelation that both the horns and the heads signify kings, the difference is a refinement rather than a reason for the difference. An important statement is then made in Rev. 13:4, where it is said that the Dragon gave the Beast his power. In Rev. 13:11 another two-horned beast appears, again speaking as a dragon, and in Rev. 13:12 it is stated that he exercises power, the first beast. Then in Rev. 13:14 it is said that this beast, will make an image of the first beast, which had the wound of the sword, but began to live again. In Rev. 14:9 or 14:11 the Beast and his image, or the "mark" of Rev. 13:16-19 is still spoken of. According to Rev. 15:2 there are to be overcomers over the Beast and the image of the Beast made by the two-horned beast, and finally in Rev. 16:2 there is a description of when the first bowl is poured out on those who have the mark of the Beast and worship his image. And the 5th bowl, according to Rev. 16:11, is poured out on the throne of the Beast. The reaction is that out of the mouth of the Dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet, came three unclean spirits. The number here is numerically limited and besides the Dragon, there is only the first, the seven-headed Beast and then, the two-horned beast.

The beast of Rev. 17:3 is described as having seven heads and ten horns. In Rev. 17:8 the Beast is to come out of the abyss, which brings me back to Rev. 11:8, the basic time sequence is given: first the two witnesses (1260 days) and then the Beast killing the two witnesses after it comes out of the abyss and works for 42 months. In Rev. 17:11, this Beast is the last, for he goes into perdition.

And the end result, in Rev 19:19-20, is the Beast and the false prophet are taken captive and it is specifically stated that the two, are cast into the lake of fire. In Rev. 20:2 the Dragon, Satan, is bound and cast into the abyss and Rev. 20:4 describes the resurrection of those who did not worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark. After the 1000 years are over, then Satan is released from the abyss (prison) and because Satan does not take a second chance, he is cast into the lake of fire where the Beast and the false prophet are (Rev. 20:10).

*

The seven-headed Beast is variously described, but derives its form from the Dragon. It is explicitly stated that the Beast, with the Dragon and the False Prophet, as it three entities. The Beast comes up out of the sea (from the abyss = deep sea Rev. 17:8) and wages war with the faithful - killing the two witnesses (Rev. 11:8) and triumphing over the saints (Rev. 13:7).

**

Personally, I think the Beast is one because it is well documented. Most commentators agree that this seven-headed Beast is the Antichrist. I find the Antichrist question more difficult than whether there are two Beasts according to JWs-theology. Rather, I understand the two-horned beast, with horns like a lamb (Rev 13:11) because of its designation as a "false prophet" (see Matt 7:15: beware of false prophets who come in sheep's clothing...) to be the Antichrist. The apostle John, in his letters, then identifies the antichrists with the false prophets (1 John 4:1-3), and like the two-horned beast (Rev. 13:14), the antichrists also go astray (2 John 1:7).

Traditional exegesis (as far back as Irenaeus of Lyons) sees the Antichrist in the seven-headed Beast. But I am more inclined to believe that the real Antichrist is the false prophet...

***

Later, I want to look at the issue of the Beast and the false prophet through the "lens" of the destruction of Babylon the Great and the identity of Babylon the Great, as this also - in my opinion - helps to clarify roles and relationships. I have written something on the identity of Babylon for about a year now, but I need to finish it...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@Kosonen

I am of the opinion that it is one Beast, but different descriptions. The JWs-theology does work with two different Beasts, but they have, among other things(!), a serious contradiction in the chronology of events. JWs claim that the two witnesses, were killed and revived in 1919 when they comment on the passage in Rev 11:7-12 where the Beast that is to come up out of the abyss is said to kill them. But in the commentary on Rev. 17:8, where the Bible describes the Beast coming up out of the abyss, it says it is the Company of Nations that was formed on January 10, 1920. That is, about a year after the alleged revival of the alleged two witnesses.

The JWs may have been aware of the problem, so they claim that the Beast of ch. 13 that rises from the sea is already the one that rises from the abyss. However, the fact remains that the Beast rising from the abyss is not described in Revelation until chapter 17.

In my opinion, the JWs have created a fictional problem that will not arise if we accept that there are two different views of the same Beast, or even more simply: if we prefer the biblical text to the JWs' commentary.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

PetrW

@Duran

Where are ANY of these so-called chosen ones now?

In examining Revelation, I think the best answer is the question. Therefore, I answer your question with a question: are we in Revelation chapter 7 to begin the their sealing?

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@Duran

As I wrote to you, I rather decided to start in the 7th trumpet.

The chronological framework I described to you is my working hypothesis ✌️😎 It's not dogma: I turn on my own "new light" quite often 😁

On the death blow: honestly, so far still in exploration. As with other entities, one needs to research the history of Christian tradition, i.e. how and who commented on these passages and when. Compare that with modern interpretations. To parse the text... That's quite time-consuming...

So, so far, I'm thinking that the two witnesses will deal the blow (the Beast will make war with them), but the pouring of the bowl on his throne is also a possibility. But I don't know...

The Abyssos, or prison, is - as I understand it - open from the 1st woe, when the locusts come out of it. Then the horses and finally the beast. I don't think the abyssos caused the wound. But again, I don't want to dismiss it, it's an interesting consideration - especially in the context of Babylon the Great (on the identity of Babylon the Great, later...).

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@ Duran

Good question!

Why will the two witnesses not preach until after the 7th trumpet? I think the answer is in Rev 11:7: they are to preach and the Beast of Abyss will end their preaching. According to Rev. 17:8, the Beast comes out of the abyss and is, I believe, identical to the Beast of Rev. 13:1 (the reason for the identical beast - aside from "cosmetic" differences in description - is that this Beast comes out whole with its heads and also goes whole into the "lake of fire" in Rev. 19:20).

This means that the two witnesses have to preach for 1260 days, and sometimes at the end of their preaching ("they finish preaching" Rev. 11:7) the Beast appears for 42 months, which at the beginning of the reign, destroys the two witnesses.

This is probably obvious to you, but like you, I have addressed the question, don't the 1260 days begin at the time of the 6th trumpet (2nd woe)?

The decision for the 1260 days only beginning at the time of the 7th trumpet, in my opinion, lies in the use of the future tense for the verbs "prophesy" or "trample". Therefore, I have placed the beginning of "prophesying" only in the 7th trumpet.

I explain it another way: in the broader context of the chronology of Revelation as I understand it, if I add up the 1260 days (sermons) and 42 months, I come up with a length of these events of about 7 years. Okay, but what about the preceding period? As has been discussed here, I consider Joseph's dream in Egypt to be "eschatological": Ex 41:49 describes that in the first seven years, the "corn" (= sons of God) was like "sand in the sea" that they stopped counting them. In Ex. 41:50 "before the year of famine began", two sons (=two witnesses) are born to Joseph. Then sets 7 years of famine...

The total time from the hanging of the four (angelic) horsemen to the destruction of the Beast would be about 14 years. Which also corresponds to the requirement, so well known in JWs-theology, that the generation "shall not pass away". According to Matt. 10:21, the father is to deliver the child and the children, his parents, to death. It does not say (though it probably does!) that grandfathers their grandchildren or that grandchildren their grandfathers.

The 14 years or 7 years for the harvest* also suggests the duration of the individual breaking of the seal and trumpet: in the 5th trumpet the torment by the locusts is described (Rev 9:5;10) - it is to last 5 months. I infer from this that it is roughly a total of 6 months for the individual seals and trumpets. If I add these six months together from the first seal to the 7th trumpet, it is the 7 years. Some clue to the "half-year" duration is found, I believe, in the text of Rev. 9:15, where the angel is prepared for the hour, day, month, and year. The event is to take place within a year, not e.g. seven years or 50 years (Jubilee).

* The cleansing and gathering of the last of the harvest (144,000) and the gathering of all others who show the slightest humanity (like the thief on the cross) or just obey(!), like the 276 people who were with Paul in the boat (Acts 27:37), then likewise from the world and from the power of the Beast, all people will be saved. All the saved, including the 144,000, will be as the sand in the sea, these are the ones coming out of the great tribulation... if the end comes anytime soon, then I think billions will survive...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@Duran

These 5 trumpets are said to be blown and events associated with them end before the 3 1/2 years begin. (It is within the 6th trumpet that the 42 months are said to occur.)

***

You've described the problem exactly.

The interesting question is when the event announced in trumpet 6 will begin: for Rev 11:2 uses futurum for "trampling" and that it will last 42 months. And in Rev. 11:3 it is written, again using futurum, that "a (suggestion) will be given" to the two witnesses to prophesy (again futurum) 1260 days. For completeness, I add that the second woe ends in Rev. 11:14, and only then, the 3rd woe occurs, at the sounding of the 7th and final trumpet (see also Paul).

In my opinion, the two witnesses begin preaching shortly after the 7th trumpet sounds, that is when the 1260 days begin to be counted. And parallel to this, according to Rev 12:6, the woman, after the birth of the boy/man (Michael), flees into the wilderness for 1260 days.

So I interpret this passage to mean that the heavenly battle (Rev 12:7) between Michael and the dragon, lasts for those 1260 days, the time when the two symbolic witnesses prophesy on earth. After Satan is cast down to earth (so he persecutes the woman again, and is given "time, times, and half a time." Although this roughly corresponds to the length of 42 months, it does not mean that "time" corresponds to "year"). Soon after, the reign of the Beast occurs, which according to Rev 13:5 is to last 42 months, and at that time, I believe, the "trampling" of the court/Jerusalem, the 42 months announced in the 6th trumpet, also occurs.

I've also read the explanation that John applied "days" to the people and "months" to the "beast" to somehow distinguish these time periods while connecting the two.

This is my take on the events surrounding the 7th trumpet and the 1260 days / 42 months issue. I do not convert time periods to "days to years" because there is no reason to.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

PetrW

The twelve tribes of Revelation is also a very interesting topic! I explain the missing tribe of Dan by God creating the New Jerusalem. He's not making a Greater Jerusalem <=> Babylon => Greater Babylon.

There will be new tribes in the New Jerusalem. New does not mean immediately different. They will be different in their newness. If the old tribes came from four women, then the new tribes will be from the four sides of the world.

Their names are even more symbolic than the original ones, and at the same time the substitution of Dan for Joseph shows - in my opinion - a choice. What God prefers...that is the newness. It is not a condemnation of the past, but an emphasis on the new.

I take the 144,000 figure literally. But it's not that only the 144,000 reign with Christ. There will be more. In every age, sons and daughters of God have been born. In every age some harvest has come into the Lord's barn. As Noah was told, the sowing and reaping will never cease. It's just that sometimes the harvest is more, sometimes less. At the end of the ages there will be 144,000.

For the New Jerusalem is a huge city, not just for the 144,000 - the last harvest of this world.

P.S. Ephesus, the city, had a population of about 200,000 at the time of the writing of Revelation, so it must have been a wonder to the Christians of the time where so many Christians would come from all at once...

But even that number was supposed to be a sign that great changes would come with the coming of Christ.

So if I take it from the perspective of chronology, understanding the text of Revelation in its main fulfillment from chapter 4 onwards, as a continuous one, as a sequential one (with descriptive exceptions regarding the Beast or Babylon), then the gathering of Israel to the 144,000 is about half the time of the whole of Revelation. Then comes the second, the worse part.

From this perspective, I see the missing name or other than expected name as the same "problem" as, say, the identification of the Nicolaitans. They are described by their function as false apostles, not by their origin, the content of their doctrines, and the content of their controversy with the rest of the church. Those details are missing, but from the few (false apostles) one can infer a lot. As well as why the name Joseph and not Rachel is in the new Israel...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@EasyPrompt

The quotations of Zechariah and chapter 13 are often used. Personally, I find it incomprehensible. This kind of answer, I understand the same as when I ask: What is love? And the answer will be: God is love! And what is God? Well, love!

Formal correctness is achieved, and one cannot fault such a looping answer, except that the answer is an even greater mystery than the original question.

I have my opinion on 1/3 and the interpretation. It is not, as with 1/4 in the case of the (angelic) horsemen of Revelation 6, a literal 1/4 of the people who perish.

Like 1/3, it is not an arithmetic number, because if 1/3 of the earth is to be burned and all(!!!) the grass is burned (Rev 8:7), then Revelation need not continue from that verse, because life on earth would be destroyed... this verse is, in my opinion, also a "touchstone" for literal/symbolic interpretations, more precisely the boundaries or conditions under which one can speak of the literal or symbolic meaning of the text.

What is 1/3 and to whom does it apply? Answer later (tomorrow perhaps)✌️😎😁

125

Mandated Shunning is a Crime

by Lee Marsh in

mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.

shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.

mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.

PetrW

@jhine

Here's how I think: Somewhere on this website there is a published case of an elder in the congregation who was convicted of pedophilia.

Suppose the elders in the congregation had actively intervened earlier to excommunicate this pedophile. But he would have defended himself - ironically - precisely on the basis of not being allowed contact with others. And he is, by virtue of the presumption of innocence, truly innocent until proven guilty. Human justice is just as imperfect and easily abused.

Jan, I'm not a lawyer. But what little I do know of the philosophy of law is that a law that denies something must have penalties. And someone has to review that. So excommunication would have to be reviewable by the courts, for example. But in terms of the economics of litigation, they may also decide to place higher demands on the elders in the congregation. They may make a demand for some additional training in the basics of law, psychology, sociology, history of religion or pedagogy...

Every such law extends the influence of the state into the religious life of its citizens. And when the state takes over, sooner or later it will become a "malheur".

And the state will then start persecuting "different-minded" people who refuse, for example, to promote homosexuality in a Christian congregation...

The result will be that people will actually lose interest in a religion, as any dispute will result in exhausting legal wrangling.

And then if we look at states that turn into totalitarian structures, then their efforts at total control of the citizens, actually ends in the death of the citizens...