Posts by PetrW

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@Duran

These 5 trumpets are said to be blown and events associated with them end before the 3 1/2 years begin. (It is within the 6th trumpet that the 42 months are said to occur.)

***

You've described the problem exactly.

The interesting question is when the event announced in trumpet 6 will begin: for Rev 11:2 uses futurum for "trampling" and that it will last 42 months. And in Rev. 11:3 it is written, again using futurum, that "a (suggestion) will be given" to the two witnesses to prophesy (again futurum) 1260 days. For completeness, I add that the second woe ends in Rev. 11:14, and only then, the 3rd woe occurs, at the sounding of the 7th and final trumpet (see also Paul).

In my opinion, the two witnesses begin preaching shortly after the 7th trumpet sounds, that is when the 1260 days begin to be counted. And parallel to this, according to Rev 12:6, the woman, after the birth of the boy/man (Michael), flees into the wilderness for 1260 days.

So I interpret this passage to mean that the heavenly battle (Rev 12:7) between Michael and the dragon, lasts for those 1260 days, the time when the two symbolic witnesses prophesy on earth. After Satan is cast down to earth (so he persecutes the woman again, and is given "time, times, and half a time." Although this roughly corresponds to the length of 42 months, it does not mean that "time" corresponds to "year"). Soon after, the reign of the Beast occurs, which according to Rev 13:5 is to last 42 months, and at that time, I believe, the "trampling" of the court/Jerusalem, the 42 months announced in the 6th trumpet, also occurs.

I've also read the explanation that John applied "days" to the people and "months" to the "beast" to somehow distinguish these time periods while connecting the two.

This is my take on the events surrounding the 7th trumpet and the 1260 days / 42 months issue. I do not convert time periods to "days to years" because there is no reason to.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

PetrW

The twelve tribes of Revelation is also a very interesting topic! I explain the missing tribe of Dan by God creating the New Jerusalem. He's not making a Greater Jerusalem <=> Babylon => Greater Babylon.

There will be new tribes in the New Jerusalem. New does not mean immediately different. They will be different in their newness. If the old tribes came from four women, then the new tribes will be from the four sides of the world.

Their names are even more symbolic than the original ones, and at the same time the substitution of Dan for Joseph shows - in my opinion - a choice. What God prefers...that is the newness. It is not a condemnation of the past, but an emphasis on the new.

I take the 144,000 figure literally. But it's not that only the 144,000 reign with Christ. There will be more. In every age, sons and daughters of God have been born. In every age some harvest has come into the Lord's barn. As Noah was told, the sowing and reaping will never cease. It's just that sometimes the harvest is more, sometimes less. At the end of the ages there will be 144,000.

For the New Jerusalem is a huge city, not just for the 144,000 - the last harvest of this world.

P.S. Ephesus, the city, had a population of about 200,000 at the time of the writing of Revelation, so it must have been a wonder to the Christians of the time where so many Christians would come from all at once...

But even that number was supposed to be a sign that great changes would come with the coming of Christ.

So if I take it from the perspective of chronology, understanding the text of Revelation in its main fulfillment from chapter 4 onwards, as a continuous one, as a sequential one (with descriptive exceptions regarding the Beast or Babylon), then the gathering of Israel to the 144,000 is about half the time of the whole of Revelation. Then comes the second, the worse part.

From this perspective, I see the missing name or other than expected name as the same "problem" as, say, the identification of the Nicolaitans. They are described by their function as false apostles, not by their origin, the content of their doctrines, and the content of their controversy with the rest of the church. Those details are missing, but from the few (false apostles) one can infer a lot. As well as why the name Joseph and not Rachel is in the new Israel...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@EasyPrompt

The quotations of Zechariah and chapter 13 are often used. Personally, I find it incomprehensible. This kind of answer, I understand the same as when I ask: What is love? And the answer will be: God is love! And what is God? Well, love!

Formal correctness is achieved, and one cannot fault such a looping answer, except that the answer is an even greater mystery than the original question.

I have my opinion on 1/3 and the interpretation. It is not, as with 1/4 in the case of the (angelic) horsemen of Revelation 6, a literal 1/4 of the people who perish.

Like 1/3, it is not an arithmetic number, because if 1/3 of the earth is to be burned and all(!!!) the grass is burned (Rev 8:7), then Revelation need not continue from that verse, because life on earth would be destroyed... this verse is, in my opinion, also a "touchstone" for literal/symbolic interpretations, more precisely the boundaries or conditions under which one can speak of the literal or symbolic meaning of the text.

What is 1/3 and to whom does it apply? Answer later (tomorrow perhaps)✌️😎😁

125

Mandated Shunning is a Crime

by Lee Marsh in

mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.

shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.

mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.

PetrW

@jhine

Here's how I think: Somewhere on this website there is a published case of an elder in the congregation who was convicted of pedophilia.

Suppose the elders in the congregation had actively intervened earlier to excommunicate this pedophile. But he would have defended himself - ironically - precisely on the basis of not being allowed contact with others. And he is, by virtue of the presumption of innocence, truly innocent until proven guilty. Human justice is just as imperfect and easily abused.

Jan, I'm not a lawyer. But what little I do know of the philosophy of law is that a law that denies something must have penalties. And someone has to review that. So excommunication would have to be reviewable by the courts, for example. But in terms of the economics of litigation, they may also decide to place higher demands on the elders in the congregation. They may make a demand for some additional training in the basics of law, psychology, sociology, history of religion or pedagogy...

Every such law extends the influence of the state into the religious life of its citizens. And when the state takes over, sooner or later it will become a "malheur".

And the state will then start persecuting "different-minded" people who refuse, for example, to promote homosexuality in a Christian congregation...

The result will be that people will actually lose interest in a religion, as any dispute will result in exhausting legal wrangling.

And then if we look at states that turn into totalitarian structures, then their efforts at total control of the citizens, actually ends in the death of the citizens...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@EasyPrompt

Okay, I guess we have a different interpretation. But to me it is obvious that the continuity of the seals and trumpets is provided by the text of Rev 8:1nn. Of course, that's not the only reason I think the events follow, but I'd like to hear your opinion, at least on this particular passage (Rev 8:1nn).

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

I also think Joseph's dream in Egypt really helps to resolve the chronology of Revelation. But I interpret the dream a little differently: the first 7 years, the fat years when they reaped such a great harvest that they stopped counting it afterwards, is the period between the 1st seal and the last 7th trumpet. The locust attack, i.e., the 1st woe, lasts 5 months, and I think that's an important timeline, that each event from the 1st seal to the 7th trumpet will last about half a year.

The 7th last trumpet, then, initiates the period of the last 7 years. A time of symbolic famine, misery and oppression. The reign of the Beast, the persecution of the saints, the destruction of Babylon the Great. And if those days had not been cut short...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

I will try to simplify it even more to the most basic points:

- The last, 7th seal, also marks the opening of the 1st trumpet (Rev 8:1). Seals and trumpets, therefore, cannot be parallel time events. They are blocks of events that build upon each other.

- If the 6th trumpet announces that the Beast is to come up out of the abyss (Rev. 11:7), and we know that he is to reign for 42 months before going into destruction, then this also means that by the time the 6th bowl is poured out on the Beast's throne, the Beast must have already "come up" out of the sea and, by the same token, not yet gone into destruction. This again means that the bowls follow the trumpets.

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@EasyPrompt

The plagues/trumpets/bowls of Revelation are all depicting those events at slightly different angles.

***

The subject of the chronology of Revelation is vast and many areas would need to be addressed. Therefore, just a brief comment on why I think the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls, follow one another as they are described.

Two reasons: 1. the direct description that an event block is the last, which allows one to argue that something must (temporally) precede it, and 2. the internal references to the events, where the appearance of descriptions of the same characters (e.g. the appearance of the Beast) in two different time events, presupposes that the character in question, already exists.

On point 1.) In my view, this is due, first, to the fact that, e.g., in Rev 21:9, the plagues that took place within the 7 bowl block are identified as the last ones. This also corresponds exactly to the announcement in Rev 15:1.

On point 2.) The seals have ordinal numerals (except the first), but then the second, third, fourth...

In Rev. 6:12 the 6th seal is opened, and according to Rev. 7:1, within this 6th seal, 4 angels are commanded to "hold the 4 winds from the 4 corners of the earth" "until they seal (144000)" (Rev. 7:3). The sealing is still going on at the time of the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9:1), where the locusts are told not to harm the people with the seal (Rev. 9:4). And according to Rev. 8:1, the 7th seal is opened in order, followed by the giving of the 7 trumpets, 7 angels (Rev. 8:2, 6). The angel with the trumpet is marked directly by a serial number: first, second, third...

And according to Rev 9:14, the angel with the 6th trumpet is directly told to release the 4 angels mentioned in the 6th seal (Rev 7:1). With the 6th trumpet, the sealing of the 144000 ends. But yet the 4th trumpet announces 3 woes that run concurrently from the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:12 - the first woe has passed, two more to come), within the 2nd woe or 6th trumpet, it is announced that out of the abyss, the Beast will ascend (Rev 11:7) and the second woe ends in Rev 11:14. So the 3rd woe lasts from the 7th trumpet onwards, with the appearance of the Beast and all the accompanying scenes, so that, for example, the 6th bowl (the block of the last 7 woes), is poured out on the throne of the Beast. Which is only possible if the Beast has already come out of the sea.

This is a small outline of how I understand the chronology of Revelation. It's based on a few assumptions, which I won't elaborate on here, but again, simply: I have a timeline and I write all the major events in there, and I do so by thinking that Revelation has two main parts: announcement and action. Above the timeline I write the announcement, below the timeline, then the action. Something is announced to the angels and the action only occurs some time later (either a verb in the future tense is used or just some internal reference to a subsequent/preceding event there).

In general, I would describe the chronology of Revelation as a linear, unidirectional chronology that will follow the main supporting timeline: the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls.

The digressions to the Beast and to Babylon the Great do not disturb this order.

125

Mandated Shunning is a Crime

by Lee Marsh in

mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.

shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.

mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.

PetrW

To me, this demand smacks a bit of "compulsory solidarity" (a modern term in the EU associated with taking in illegal immigrants).

On the one hand, I can feel like a victim of someone from the JWs ordering my family members to stay away from me. On the other hand, it is also true that I am not ready to retreat from my positions either, or more accurately: the fact that relatives are with the JWs doesn't bother me, but I am not going to "lower" myself to re-enter the same river 😎

I think the command form of the verb "to love" => could only be used by God. If the governments of this world do it too, it usually leads to the death of a large number of people or in other words: more people always die in the process than should hypothetically have been saved if nothing had been done... I don't trust governments a priori 😁

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

Anony Mous, I think you're thinking along the right lines. We may disagree on the implications, but I agree with you on your initial reasoning regarding the meaning of numbers in Revelation... 😎

If, Jesus says write to 7 congregations, then the number of letters is 7. It is not 8 or 6. In the same way, 7 angels have 7 trumpets and blow 7 times, not 6 times or 8 times.

I consider John*, the author of Revelation, this John is identical to the author of the Gospel. And it is in this Gospel that the writer's "penchant" for different numbers and precise timings is striking. John, for example, lists the 3 festivals of Passover, writes at what exact hour an event took place, counts prices, people, fish...

It's just a hint, it's more of a curiosity, but that interest in numbers, measurements, totals is also found in Revelation. John again is fond of measuring the New Jerusalem, calculating the length of the 1000 years, stating that something was first, and something was second, etc., etc.

So how is it - in my opinion - with the 144,000? Why not 143,999 or 144,001?

I think the number 144,000 is literal because the sum of 12x12,000 is literal. But, there is - in my opinion - a big BUT.

Because in order for any number of 144,000 to come into existence, then in the context of Revelation, the angels will seal those 144,000. This will occur when the Revelation takes place. The question becomes, what about the people who are living in the time before the sealing? JWs-theology addresses this with a sort of excuse that these people are counted in the 144,000 and that there is a sort of "remnant" in the ranks of the JWs. This would assume, of course, that Revelation and sealing is permanent and not from the 6th seal (and lasts until the 6th trumpet). This interpretation, is contrary to their interpretation of 1914... but the contradictions in JWs theology are not important.

How is it then? I think, and the sheer size of the New Jerusalem suggests it, that there will be millions upon millions of these co-rulers and priests with Christ, men and women. Each of those 20 centuries has "produced" plenty of "wheat", sometimes more, sometimes less. Never, as Noah was told, did the sowing and reaping cease. In a symbolic sense, I take it to mean just that in each period, some wheat was born.

In my opinion, then, by the time the last harvest of the last sons and daughters of God begins, then all have the same right and the same chance to be as "last" as the 144,000. And no one can take that right away from them. No theology, no organization. Only Jesus will choose.

I address the question of literal meaning by saying that, yes, it is a literal number, but if there has been no breaking of the 6th seal, then the heavenly government is offered to all who have "an ear to hear". The analogy, then, is with the great multitude at the time of Revelation: these are people who, though they did not know Christ accurately, acted mercifully towards other people. These are the ones who change (literally: 1/3 died after being attacked by 200 myriads of "horses") and show compassion, like the Samaritan. If Revelation were to take place at this time, then the Samaritan represents a merciful Muslim or a merciful Chinese Communist. I deliberately write it this way because I believe in the universality of salvation, which is really based on who is merciful or gentle, and not on the external attributes of "our/foreign"...

*there are various hypotheses as far back as the patristic era on the subject of authorship. The authenticity of God's word doesn't change that in my opinion - see the Letter to the Hebrews, where the author's name is not even directly mentioned.