tfs

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  30

  To You Know: Broken "Sworn Oaths" Be...

  by tfs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  and yet, the interesting thing is that you went to the kingdom hall.

  unless you were just sneaking in to spy on your former brothers, which may or may not be the case, or perhaps in your case there is some remnant of spirituality that remains.

  at any rate, jehovah has the perfect solution to the problem confronting the faith.

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  tfs

  Hi Will Power,

  No no no no. what YK is saying is that only the annointed JWs will be forgiven. The rest will be exterminated along with the rest of the world. He realizes the WT is corrupt, deceptive, & blood guilty ...Get it?

  Yes, I see that. But the Bible says "there is no INJUSTICE with God" toward no one. Jehovah is the "God of Justice". So I ask, where is the "justice" in that type of judgment? (Deut. 32:4; Malachi 2:17)

  Where can this oath be found? Is it in a book?

  The 1963 WTS/JWs sworn oath toward non-involvement with the United Nations Organization is mentioned numerous times in the WTS' publications. For example, the "Resolution" in its entirety is shown in the 1963 Watchtower magazine pgs. 684 thru 687. The article is entitled, "THE RESOLUTION" and was written and presented word-for-word by the WTS, to JWs worldwide. It was composed as a "study article" and thus discussed congregationally by all JWs worldwide back in 1963, showing it to be of great importance and note.

  Also the "Resolution" was mentioned in the following publications:

  (a) yb75 pgs. 235-236
  (b) w67 pgs. 118, 370
  (c) w66 pg. 764
  (d) yb64 pg. 46
  (e) w63 pgs. 631-632, 753-756
  (f) g63 10/22 pg. 22

  Hope this helps.

  tfs
• 
  30

  To You Know: Broken "Sworn Oaths" Be...

  by tfs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  and yet, the interesting thing is that you went to the kingdom hall.

  unless you were just sneaking in to spy on your former brothers, which may or may not be the case, or perhaps in your case there is some remnant of spirituality that remains.

  at any rate, jehovah has the perfect solution to the problem confronting the faith.

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  tfs

  You Know,

  So you feel that Divine Justice would be served if Jehovah God TOTALLY DESTROYS all the church organizations of our day, and but merely, "DISCIPLINE" and "HUMILIATE" the WTS/JW Organization for their "sins"? That would be Divine Justice to you, correct?

  Also, please feel free to make any comment you wish on Zechariah 5:4 and the breaking of the 1963 Sworn Oath toward non-involvement with the United Nations Organization that the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses made before God. In other words, why does the JW Organization escape complete "extermination" mentioned in the verse, in your mind? But all the church organizations of the world do not?

  I think the man of lawlessness is within the organization and he is responsible for misleading the brothers into this situation.

  How can the "man of lawlessness" (a) be present and (b) MISLEAD the brothers in the organization, without JWs breaking the New Covenant? How is that possible? (2 Thess. 2:3,4)

  tfs
• 
  30

  To You Know: Broken "Sworn Oaths" Be...

  by tfs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  and yet, the interesting thing is that you went to the kingdom hall.

  unless you were just sneaking in to spy on your former brothers, which may or may not be the case, or perhaps in your case there is some remnant of spirituality that remains.

  at any rate, jehovah has the perfect solution to the problem confronting the faith.

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  tfs

  You Know, you said,

  And yet, the interesting thing is that you went to the kingdom hall. Unless you were just sneaking in to spy on your former brothers, which may or may not be the case, or perhaps in your case there is some remnant of spirituality that remains. At any rate, Jehovah has the perfect solution to the problem confronting the faith. The problem as it exists presently is the larger than life place the organization has carved out for itself at Jehovah's expense. The truth of the matter is, though, that the hand of Jehovah is not too short to deal with the organizational problem. Every student of Bible history knows that Jehovah brought Israel to heel on numerous occasions. And he has the means at his disposal, and the will, to humble the Watchtower as well. It is exactly what is needed. And, I say that not as a vengeful apostate who is grinding his teeth and laying awake at night plotting the Watchtower's demise, but as one who really loves Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Of course, no one is expecting that God would ever turn the Watchtower on its head---least of all Jehovah's Witnesses. Many have come to view the Watchtower as some sort of inviolable holy place, much like the Jews viewed the temple in Jerusalem. It is unthinkable to the brothers, and to apostates as well, that Jehovah would ever intervene to humiliate and discipline the organization. That's why it is the perfect judicial decision on Jehovah's part, because the only ones who will survive the ordeal with their faith intact will be those who actually have genuine faith and are not mere followers of men. / You Know

  
  I want to touch on three points you have made above. A quick recap of what you have said above reveals overall three (3) powerful points of rationale that begs to be addressed.

  You said,

  (A) "...The problem as it exists presently is the larger than life place the organization has carved out for itself at Jehovah's expense."

  (B) "...Many have come to view the Watchtower as some sort of inviolable holy place, much like the Jews viewed the temple in Jerusalem."

  These questions come to mind:

  1) According to the Bible, isn't that type of conduct classified as outright idolatry and a "Great Sin" before God?

  2) And if it is, how is such conduct FORGIVEABLE, from God's standpoint for the WTS/JW Organization, and NOT FORGIVEABLE for all other church organizations?

  3) Also, how does the above described illicit conduct of the WTS differ from what we would normally expect of the coming of the "Man of Lawlessness"? (2 Thess. 2:3,4)

  Also, you mentioned above this powerful point of rationale:

  (C) "...Jehovah would ever intervene to HUMILIATE and DISCIPLINE the organization."

  You feel that Divine Justice would be served if Jehovah God TOTALLY DESTROYS all the church organizations of our day, and merely, "DISCIPLINE" and "HUMILIATE" the WTS/JW Organization for their "sins". That would be Divine Justice to you. Please consider the following.

  Regarding the WTS/UN Scandal:

  The following is a SWORN STATEMENT MADE IN GOD'S NAME, by the WTS and all Jehovah's Witnesses at the 1963 "Everlasting Good News" Conventions around the world.

  "WE JEHOVAH'S witnesses, met together in [City, State, Country], in one of the Everlasting Good News assemblies being held in a continuous chain around the whole world this year of 1963, do this day declare and resolve as follows:

  "...That, in order to prevent the destruction of the nations by their own means in war, the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to God's Messianic kingdom by setting up a society of nations, which, since 1945, has taken the form and the name of the UNITED NATIONS, with international headquarters at New York City. This international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men. For years men without faith in God's kingdom have endeavored to get all people to worship this international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security, in fact, the last hope for humanity. To date 111 nations have given worship to this policital image by becoming members of it. However, we, as witnesses of the Sovereign God Jehovah, will continue refusing to engage in such idolatrous worship, for we see, under angelic enlightenment, that God has smitten such idolaters with a malignant ulcer, symbolically speaking, that will spell death to them as spiritually diseased image worshipers who worship a man-made political creation rather than the Creator of heaven and earth."

  As you know, the churches of this world made no such sworn oath before God. But Jehovah's Witnesses under the direction of the WTS did do this. So the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide alone, carry this great responsibility before God, to keep their "sworn" word and bring Him glory in this way.

  And yet, for the past 10 years, the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses as a people have broken this "Sworn Oath", made in God's Name, to be non-involved with the United Nations Organization, did they not?

  Therefore, based upon the above words of the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide, wouldn't a more appropriate "judgment" from God's Hands towards this self-condemned IDOLATROUS people be total destruction, or "EXTERMINATION"?

  Well, before you answer, let's consider this scripture found at Zechariah 5:4 which says,

  "I have caused it to go forth, is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, and it must enter into the house of the thief and into the house of THE ONE MAKING A SWORN OATH IN MY NAME FALSELY; and it must lodge in the midst of his house and EXTERMINATE IT and its timbers and its stones."

  Does not this verse above make clear the point, that All breakers of "sworn oaths" made in "God's Name" should receive "EXTERMINATION" at God's Righteous Hand?

  So, then how can Jehovah's Witnesses escape such a judgment of "extermination", and receive mere "discipline" and simple "humiliation" as you say above?

  Why should God strike down other church organizations who are considered in His sight, "idolatrous worshipers" of the "spiritually diseased [United Nations] beast" with "death-dealing malignant ulcers" and not do the same for all JWs who INCREASED "GUILT" before Him by making this voluntary "Sworn Oath" in His Holy Name?

  After making this Sworn Oath before God, in His Name and breaking it, how can the WTS and all Jehovah's Witnesses escape the consequences of Zechariah 5:4, which is COMPLETE "EXTERMINATION"?

  How can a God of Justice, destroy all of the other church organizations on earth for idolatry, but simply "DISCIPLINE" and "HUMILIATE" the Watchtower/Jehovah's Witnesses Organization, and not totally destroy it for the practice of idolatry?

  How can GOD SPARE the WTS/JW Organization who gave a SWORN OATH IN HIS NAME to be NON-INVOLVED with the UN and later violate it? How can a "God of Justice" merely give as just recompense as you say, mere "discipline" to those who have clearly proved false to Him by way of a breaking a SWORN OATH MADE IN HIS NAME? (Malachi 2:17; Zechariah 5:4)

  And after rendering that Divine judgment, being Himself the "God of Justice" (Malachi 2:17), at the same time turn around and TOTALLY DESTROY all the other church organizations of the world who commit the same crime, and still be CONSISTENT with His Own Counsel found at Zechariah 5:4 mentioned above?

  Seems to me, if Jehovah and Jesus mercifully decide to "spare" Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation after their breaking of their voluntary "SWORN OATH" of non-involvement with the UN made in 1963, then, I think mercy should also be extended to all church organizations of the world who have committed spiritual "fornication" with the "beast" in His sight.

  What do you say?

  tfs
• 
  27

  Comments from the CO today

  by Richie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i went to the meeting today to hear the public talk given by the visiting co. the talk dealt with jehovah's secret dwelling place and how we can all be taking advantage of "fleeing to safety" as it were, especially as the days are getting wicked as he mentioned.

  he brought out the dangers of listening to apostates (there were 2 people in the congregation who disassociated themselves recently, which automatically meant that they were apostates according to the co's comments).

  then he further elaborated on the fact that there were about 14,000 witnesses disfellowshipped in the usa each year and in canada 1400, about the size of a circuit assembly - also he said how terribly dishonorable it would be to be df'd and be as a dead person as it were (i felt so embarrassed as i am df'd) - during the talk he brought out two points which were extremely misleading if not outright lies: he said that just after the disaster of sept 11th, thousands of people "wanted to flee to security to the watchtower building and that they felt that they needed this security".

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  tfs

  You Know, you said,

  And yet, the interesting thing is that you went to the kingdom hall. Unless you were just sneaking in to spy on your former brothers, which may or may not be the case, or perhaps in your case there is some remnant of spirituality that remains. At any rate, Jehovah has the perfect solution to the problem confronting the faith. The problem as it exists presently is the larger than life place the organization has carved out for itself at Jehovah's expense. The truth of the matter is, though, that the hand of Jehovah is not too short to deal with the organizational problem. Every student of Bible history knows that Jehovah brought Israel to heel on numerous occasions. And he has the means at his disposal, and the will, to humble the Watchtower as well. It is exactly what is needed. And, I say that not as a vengeful apostate who is grinding his teeth and laying awake at night plotting the Watchtower's demise, but as one who really loves Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Of course, no one is expecting that God would ever turn the Watchtower on its head---least of all Jehovah's Witnesses. Many have come to view the Watchtower as some sort of inviolable holy place, much like the Jews viewed the temple in Jerusalem. It is unthinkable to the brothers, and to apostates as well, that Jehovah would ever intervene to humiliate and discipline the organization. That's why it is the perfect judicial decision on Jehovah's part, because the only ones who will survive the ordeal with their faith intact will be those who actually have genuine faith and are not mere followers of men. / You Know

  
  I want to touch on three points you have made above. A quick recap of what you have said above reveals overall three (3) powerful points of rationale that begs to be addressed.

  You said,

  (A) "...The problem as it exists presently is the larger than life place the organization has carved out for itself at Jehovah's expense."

  (B) "...Many have come to view the Watchtower as some sort of inviolable holy place, much like the Jews viewed the temple in Jerusalem."

  These questions come to mind:

  1) According to the Bible, isn't that type of conduct classified as outright idolatry and a "Great Sin" before God?

  2) And if it is, how is such conduct FORGIVEABLE, from God's standpoint for the WTS/JW Organization, and NOT FORGIVEABLE for all other church organizations?

  3) Also, how does the above described illicit conduct of the WTS differ from what we would normally expect of the coming of the "Man of Lawlessness"? (2 Thess. 2:3,4)

  Also, you mentioned above this powerful point of rationale:

  (C) "...Jehovah would ever intervene to HUMILIATE and DISCIPLINE the organization."

  You feel that Divine Justice would be served if Jehovah God TOTALLY DESTROYS all the church organizations of our day, and merely, "DISCIPLINE" and "HUMILIATE" the WTS/JW Organization for their "sins". That would be Divine Justice to you. Please consider the following.

  Regarding the WTS/UN Scandal:

  The following is a SWORN STATEMENT MADE IN GOD'S NAME, by the WTS and all Jehovah's Witnesses at the 1963 "Everlasting Good News" Conventions around the world.

  "WE JEHOVAH'S witnesses, met together in [City, State, Country], in one of the Everlasting Good News assemblies being held in a continuous chain around the whole world this year of 1963, do this day declare and resolve as follows:

  "...That, in order to prevent the destruction of the nations by their own means in war, the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to God's Messianic kingdom by setting up a society of nations, which, since 1945, has taken the form and the name of the UNITED NATIONS, with international headquarters at New York City. This international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men. For years men without faith in God's kingdom have endeavored to get all people to worship this international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security, in fact, the last hope for humanity. To date 111 nations have given worship to this policital image by becoming members of it. However, we, as witnesses of the Sovereign God Jehovah, will continue refusing to engage in such idolatrous worship, for we see, under angelic enlightenment, that God has smitten such idolaters with a malignant ulcer, symbolically speaking, that will spell death to them as spiritually diseased image worshipers who worship a man-made political creation rather than the Creator of heaven and earth."

  As you know, the churches of this world made no such sworn oath before God. But Jehovah's Witnesses under the direction of the WTS did do this. So the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide alone, carry this great responsibility before God, to keep their "sworn" word and bring Him glory in this way.

  And yet, for the past 10 years, the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses as a people have broken this "Sworn Oath", made in God's Name, to be non-involved with the United Nations Organization, did they not?

  Therefore, based upon the above words of the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide, wouldn't a more appropriate "judgment" from God's Hands towards this self-condemned IDOLATROUS people be total destruction, or "EXTERMINATION"?

  Well, before you answer, let's consider this scripture found at Zechariah 5:4 which says,

  "I have caused it to go forth, is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, and it must enter into the house of the thief and into the house of THE ONE MAKING A SWORN OATH IN MY NAME FALSELY; and it must lodge in the midst of his house and EXTERMINATE IT and its timbers and its stones."

  Does not this verse above make clear the point, that All breakers of "sworn oaths" made in "God's Name" should receive "EXTERMINATION" at God's Righteous Hand?

  So, then how can Jehovah's Witnesses escape such a judgment of "extermination", and receive mere "discipline" and simple "humiliation" as you say above?

  Why should God strike down other church organizations who are considered in His sight, "idolatrous worshipers" of the "spiritually diseased [United Nations] beast" with "death-dealing malignant ulcers" and not do the same for all JWs who INCREASED "GUILT" before Him by making this voluntary "Sworn Oath" in His Holy Name?

  After making this Sworn Oath before God, in His Name and breaking it, how can the WTS and all Jehovah's Witnesses escape the consequences of Zechariah 5:4, which is COMPLETE "EXTERMINATION"?

  How can a God of Justice, destroy all of the other church organizations on earth for idolatry, but simply "DISCIPLINE" and "HUMILIATE" the Watchtower/Jehovah's Witnesses Organization, and not totally destroy it for the practice of idolatry?

  How can GOD SPARE the WTS/JW Organization who gave a SWORN OATH IN HIS NAME to be NON-INVOLVED with the UN and later violate it? How can a "God of Justice" merely give as just recompense as you say, mere "discipline" to those who have clearly proved false to Him by way of a breaking a SWORN OATH MADE IN HIS NAME? (Malachi 2:17; Zechariah 5:4)

  And after rendering that Divine judgment, being Himself the "God of Justice" (Malachi 2:17), at the same time turn around and TOTALLY DESTROY all the other church organizations of the world who commit the same crime, and still be CONSISTENT with His Own Counsel found at Zechariah 5:4 mentioned above?

  Seems to me, if Jehovah and Jesus mercifully decide to "spare" Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation after their breaking of their voluntary "SWORN OATH" of non-involvement with the UN made in 1963, then, I think mercy should also be extended to all church organizations of the world who have committed spiritual "fornication" with the "beast" in His sight.

  What do you say?

  tfs
• 
  52

  WT U-Turn on "Great Crowd" (May 1, 20...

  by stevieb1 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the following is taken from questions from readers p.31 of the my 1, 2002 watchtower.

  it is the wt response to the question: "when john saw the "great crowd" rendering sacred service in jehovah's temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?".

  quote.

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  tfs

  Interesting, the May 1st, 2002 "new light" Watchtower article says this:

  "Second, there was no Court of the Gentiles in the divinely provided archtectural plans of Solomon's temple or Ezekiel's visionary temple; now was there one in the temple rebuilt by Zerubbabel. Hence, there is no reason to suggest that a Court of the Gentiles needs to play a part in Jehovah's great spiritual temple arrangement for worship, especially when the following is considered."

  So based upon that new find, there are only 2 courtyards we need to be concerned with:

  (a) The "Inner Courtyard" (For Priests)

  (b) Outer Courtyard (For Israelites including proselytes)

  We see this aptly described at Rev. 11:1,2.

  "And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: "Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary] cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."

  2 Courtyards.

  An "inner courtyard" and an "outer courtyard". One area is "measured" and the other area is not, but instead is "given to the nations" for "trampling".

  The article continues:

  "Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus'ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having "washed their robe and made them white in th blood of the Lamb." Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, THEY ARE LIKE PROSELYTES IN ISRAEL who submitted to the Law covenant and worshipped along with the Israelites."

  This is a key statement. It opens many doors. It proves to be a serious mistake on the WTS part, in trying to keep the Great Crowd out of a "Covenant-relationship" with God of any sorts.

  Here's why.

  First, they say the "Great Crowd" are like "proselytes". And what was a "proselyte"? A PROSELYTE is a person of the "nations", who converts over to the Jewish faith. He was not an Israelite by natural birth, but became one by persuasion and personal choice. "Proselytes" were accorded the same rights, privileges and duties of a natural "Israelite" by birth. They intermarried among the Israelite nation and was viewed as a bonifide "Israelite" in every way.

  And more importantly, the "proselyte" worshiped right alongside the Israelites, in the temple courtyards, where?

  Why, in the same place the Jewish nation. IN THE "OUTER COURTYARD" area, which was for Israelites. Thus, proselytes had equal standing with native Israelites. There was no distinction made between both groups. They were viewed as "Israelites" by the Jewish nation in every way. For example, (1) Uriah the Hittite, and (2) Ruth, the Moabitess, were both "proselytes" who proved to be in God's eyes, and in the nations', individuals of great valor and honor.

  Therefore, it was no big deal for the Ethopian Eunuch to become a christian. His conversion fell well before the conversion to christianity by the first uncircumcised gentile "Cornelius". In the Bible account of his conversion to christianity, we see this "proselyte" had his own personal copy of "Isaiah" as he was reading from it when approached by Philip". (Acts 8:26-40) Only a "Jew" was allowed this grand privilege.

  Also, other "proselytes" of note mentioned above like Uriah, the Hittite and Ruth, the Moabitess, were all viewed as Israelites of much note and honor, among the Jewish nation. And both of these are "proselytes" to the Jewish faith.

  So there was no distinction made between a "proselyte" and a natural Jew, so far as his spiritual "standing" with God was concerned. He would worship God, standing right within the same place as any other "Jew" or Israelite would -- right within the "outer courtyard" for the Israelites. Thus, this would make him a full-fledged member of the Mosiac Law Covenant. A Covenant-member.

  Therefore, if the "new light" of the WTS wishes to categorize the "Great Crowd" of Other Sheep as being spiritual "proselytes" rather than being unworthy spiritual "gentiles", then the Great Crowd of Other Sheep MUST BE viewed as full-fledged "Israelites" in a spiritual sense. They must be viewed as "Spiritual Isralites" who are worshiping God in the "OUTER COURTYARD where all of the other "Israelites" would properly worship.

  And if we place them there, then, the spiritual "proselytes" must be considered also, members of the "Covenant" between God and Israel. They must be viewed as spiritual "Israelites" who have a mediator, between themselves and God, the one being Jesus Christ. As spiritual Israelites, then they become members of the spiritual "Israel of God", by virtue of being spiritual "proselytes". (Galatians 6:16)

  Using this "new light," the WTS must realize, if they teach the "Great Crowd" are to be viewed as spiritual "proselytes", then they are teaching the "Great Crowd" are spiritual Israelites, who have a mediator between them and God, the one Jesus Christ. The WTS can not teach the "Great Crowd" are spiritual proselytes" and yet at the same time, try to DENY the "Great Crowd's" rightful "covenant"-standing with God any longer. The WTS' own teaching "adjustment" on the Court Yard setting in the May 1, 2002 magazine, makes this situation apparent. (1 Timothy 2:5)

  The article continues,

  "Of course, these proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah's great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah's "holy priesthood" while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for ach one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!"

  This paragraph says the "great crowd" are definitely NOT in the "inner courtyard" where the priests officiate. But says,

  "...the great crowd really is IN THE TEMPLE, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles."

  So we know, according to this, they are definitely not to be considered, then, "Gentiles" according to God's estimation of their spiritual standing with Him.

  No, but the Great Crowd are seen as "proselytes", in the "outer court yard" setting, where all of the spiritual "Israelites" gather for worship. They are spiritual "proselytes", and thus members of the Covenant of Israel with God. And in that position, they are spiritual Israelites, who have Jesus as their mediator.

  This "new light" from the WTS, has made all of this possible. So, the WTS, by their own blunderings in foolishness, have only themselves to thank for this profound change in spiritual situation and circumstance for the "Great Crowd".

  tfs
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  24

  Revelation 11:1-4

  by Smitty in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a question for all the bible experts: .

  who or what does revelation 11:1-4 apply to?

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  tfs

  Smitty,

  to many incorrect assumptions in your comparisons.

  According to whom? You?

  Where is your scriptural proof that my viewpoint is in error?

  I think my opinion is just as good as yours. Especially since you have offered nothing by way of opinion, and scriptural "proofs" in support of your position, whatever it is.

  You've contributed nothing to this discussion yourself thus far. How come?

  I notice the people here at JW.Com are nice enough to "voice" an opinion. At least they are willing to voice one. Whereas you haven't. You only show yourself to be good at striking down everything that everybody offers to you by way of explanation, and objecting to everything that "doesn't suit you". And yet, you ostensibly have no opinion on the matter, and no scriptural "proof" of your own as to what you personally believe it means.

  So, before you condemn someone elses opinion, how about contributing your own. In other words, "put-up-or-shut-up". That gives us "dummies" a chance to "cross-examine" your thoughts. And to tell you, your opinion is not up to snuff either. (Proverbs 18:17)

  Just something for you to think about.

  tfs
• 
  24

  Revelation 11:1-4

  by Smitty in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a question for all the bible experts: .

  who or what does revelation 11:1-4 apply to?

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  tfs

  Hi Smitty,

  To answer your question above about whether the "Temple" of Rev. 11:1-4 is earthy or heavenly, here's what I would say.

  A close comparison of the "temple" spoken of in Ezekiel's vision and the one mentioned in Revelation 21 and 22, shows it to be very, very similar so far as the "mission" of both temples are concerned. This similarity could be helpful to arriving at a conclusion on the matter. Why not examine and closely scrutinize the similarities? If we do we see,

  Both temples have:

  1) a powerful "river of life" flowing forth from it. A "double torrent" of truth-sustaining "waters" that serve as a source of spiritual nourishment for the living things around it.

  The "rivers of life" are described this way,

  "Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city. On either side of the river is the trees of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:1,2 NRSV)

  Compared with,

  "Then he brought me back to the entrance of the temple; there, water was flowing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east); and the water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar...As I came back, I saw on the bank of the river a great many trees on the one side and on the other. ..On the banks on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing." (Ezekiel 47:1,7,12 NRSV)

  2) Upon the embankments of the powerful "river of life", both descriptions have miraculous "trees of life" that

  (a) produce regular supply of "fruit" for "each month",

  (b) and "leaves" that have a "curing" or "healing" effect upon the inhabitants partaking of it.

  These "trees" are called the "trees of life" and remind us of the "tree of life" found within the original "Garden of Eden". (Gen. 3:22, 24)

  "Blessed are those who wash their robes so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates." (Rev. 22:14 NRSV)

  Judging from the above, we see both temples are very similar in purpose, providing "food" in the form of healthy "fruit" monthly, regularly, and providing "leaves" which are for the express purpose of "healing the nations." (Rev. 22:2 NRSV)

  3) Also, it appears both Temples had a PREVIOUS existence where gross sin was practiced, an abomination and "fornication", and forceably had a "curse" from God imposed upon it. This is not so easy to see at first. But here is where Rev. 11:1-4 becomes very important in describing this previous situation. The "Temple" that did not "measure" up to God's original standards. We see this also in Ezekiel's vision of a temple that did not originally meet God's standards. (Eze. 43:6-10; Rev. 11:1,2; 22:3)

  Therefore, if we say the "temple" you refer to in Revelation 11:1-4, is the same one that is spoken of in Rev. 21, which is quite similar to the one spoken of in Ezekiel's vision, then we must conclude it to be a FUTURE EARTHLY temple of God's making, and not a heavenly one.

  tfs
• 
  5

  Easy Way To Prove 1914 Teaching Is Wrong!

  by tfs in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it does no good to argue about words.

  however, the fact that, as i pointed out, paul appealed to ceasar, proves that christians are entitled to get a fair hearing according to the laws of the state system they are living under.

  as a matter of fact, when paul wrote to the phillipians he was under arrest in rome.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  tfs

  You Know you said,

  It does no good to argue about words. However, the fact that, as I pointed out, Paul appealed to Ceasar, proves that Christians are entitled to get a fair hearing according to the laws of the state system they are living under. As a matter of fact, when Paul wrote to the Phillipians he was under arrest in Rome. So, in the context of his remarks about 'defending and confirming the truth,' or however you want to word it, there is the legal aspect of defending the right to preach the truth. That's why Paul was in prison.

  Christians are "entitled to get a fair hearing according to the laws of the state system", under whose auspices or sponsorship I ask? Under the auspices of governments that God classifies as "beastly", run by Satan? (Luke 4:6; Daniel 7:1-8) Christians aren't promised any "rights" or privileges under worldly governments that they claim to be "no part of". Jesus said, christians "are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world". (John 17:14)

  And what treatment did Jesus get from these earthly rulers? Death. First century christians got the "lion's den", and various forms of martydom, from the hands of the "beastly" ruling agencies.

  This continued until someone decided that "compromise" was a better way out of this conflict. This is particularly true since the infamous year of 1914, by WTS/JWs standards.

  According to JWs, it was the year of 1914 that the Messianic Kingdom was empowered in the hands of Jesus Christ in heaven, supposedly. It was the year that the "Gentile Times" of world domination was completed upon earth. Therefore, the "Copper" and "Iron" bands of GENTILE RESTRAINT around the "rootstock" of the Heaven High Tree of Daniel 4th chapter, then, should have come off at that time. This would bring the end of "Superior Authority" control over "christians" earthwide. (Daniel 4:23, 26; Romans 13:1-7; See Photo in "Live Forever" book pgs. 140, 141.)

  According the WTS, the "Gentile Times" had ended or been "fulfilled" in 1914. Human Governments on earth should logically no longer hold "christians" back from carrying out ANY CHRISTIAN DUTY OR OBLIGATION by using their earthly governmental powers against them, as we have often times seen. In that year, 1914, "christians" should have stopped paying "taxes" and "tributes" to earthly governments and governmental figures, since God had no longer held them under human restraint to earthly governmental bondage and control. The "bands" are now removed from the "rootstock" of the Heaven-High Tree. (Daniel 4:23, 26)

  The Gentile "bands" of restraint are supposed to be removed, after a "2,520-year" (or "7 times" passes over banded-stump) period is to be accounted for and added to the date of 607 to reach 1914. (See "You Can Live Forever" WTS publication pages 138-141.)

  So, in the year of 1914, with the iron and copper "bands" removed of "Gentile" governmental restraint, then the counsel of Romans 13th chapter to pay taxes and give humans "tribute" as "superior authorities" should have ended in 1914. The year of 1914 should have freed "christians" from "Gentile trampling" and control where "christians" would not have to answer to human governments again. That's if the "Gentile Times" had ended, in 1914. As they explain in their literature, the WTS.

  There is nothing wicked about securing one's legally guarranteed freedoms to practice their religion. What is wicked is for a nation that prides itself on freedom and liberty to allow petty tyrants to decide who can and can't practice their religion freely without restraint.

  "A restraint" that will always be there, until "christians" are freed from "Gentile domination" of political governments on earth. Clearly, based upon your statement above, the "Gentile Times" are still upon us. The political, governmental "restraint" is still with us, where "christians" must bow to the "superior authorities" in the form of oppressive laws that outlaw "christianity" altogether in many parts of the world. Also more tolerable countries still plague "christians" along with everyone else of all faiths and belief systems with heavy taxation, oppressive laws, and the paying of human "tribute" to a "wicked", "beast-like" earthly governmental system that tortures the innocent and rewards the evil-doers of our times.

  "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:24 KJV)

  Evidently, the year of 1914 did not bring an end of the "Gentile Times" or political world domination over "christians". "Christians" are no different than anyone else. They are still in subjection to them, as superior authorities. "Christians" are still begging for mercy and leniency from the governments under Satanic control. Even "lobbying" now for freedoms and rights under Governmental agencies, representing Satan's power. (Luke 4:6) Christians, are now endowed with their latest "tool" for empowerment to give them their precious christian "rights," -- that particular country's Holy Constitution. So when the Bible doesn't work, "christians" can effectively use this new "tool" to get what they want. Some religions, like the WTS will even "get in bed" with the United Nations Organization, as NGO's, to ascertain and secure those wonderful constitutional christian "rights" you speak of.

  So sad. "Christian" Jerusalem continues to be "trampled under foot, by the nations". Their "trampling" continues, just as brutally as before 1914, than after 1914, as far as christian "rights" are concerned upon this earth.

  The year of 1914 brought no change in this earthly scene or condition.

  Thus when the above information is made available to deep-thinking christians, they invariably all come to the same inescapable and incontrovertible realization, that the much proclaimed date of 1914 acting as The Foundation Teaching and Fundamental Truth of the Watchtower Society for the past 125 years, is a easily provable FALSE DOCTRINE concocted and "artfully contrived" by wicked men of Satan. The 1914 doctrine, as taught by these true modern-day "Pharisees" of our times, sadly has been mercilessly executed upon ignorant and hapless Jehovah's Witnesses to their lasting detriment. So sad. (2 Peter 1:16; Mark 7:7-9)

  tfs
• 
  25

  You Know: Matt. 10:11-14, Please Respond

  by tfs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  matthew 10:11-14 says,.

  "into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave.

  when you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  tfs

  You Know,

  It does no good to argue about words. However, the fact that, as I pointed out, Paul appealed to Ceasar, proves that Christians are entitled to get a fair hearing according to the laws of the state system they are living under. As a matter of fact, when Paul wrote to the Phillipians he was under arrest in Rome. So, in the context of his remarks about 'defending and confirming the truth,' or however you want to word it, there is the legal aspect of defending the right to preach the truth. That's why Paul was in prison.

  Christians are "entitled to get a fair hearing according to the laws of the state system", under whose auspices or sponsorship I ask? Under the auspices of governments that God classifies as "beastly", run by Satan? (Luke 4:6; Daniel 7:1-8) Christians aren't promised any "rights" or privileges under worldly governments that they claim to be "no part of". Jesus said, christians "are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world". (John 17:14)

  And what treatment did Jesus get from these earthly rulers? Death. First century christians got the "lion's den", and various forms of martydom, from the hands of the "beastly" ruling agencies.

  This continued until someone decided that "compromise" was a better way out of this conflict. This is particularly true since the infamous year of 1914, by WTS/JWs standards.

  According to JWs, it was the year of 1914 that the Messianic Kingdom was empowered in the hands of Jesus Christ in heaven, supposedly. It was the year that the "Gentile Times" of world domination was completed upon earth. Therefore, the "Copper" and "Iron" bands of GENTILE RESTRAINT around the "rootstock" of the Heaven High Tree of Daniel 4th chapter, then, should have come off at that time. This would bring the end of "Superior Authority" control over "christians" earthwide. (Daniel 4:23, 26; Romans 13:1-7; See Photo in "Live Forever" book pgs. 140, 141.)

  According the WTS, the "Gentile Times" had ended or been "fulfilled" in 1914. Human Governments on earth should logically no longer hold "christians" back from carrying out ANY CHRISTIAN DUTY OR OBLIGATION by using their earthly governmental powers against them, as we have often times seen. In that year, 1914, "christians" should have stopped paying "taxes" and "tributes" to earthly governments and governmental figures, since God had no longer held them under human restraint to earthly governmental bondage and control. The "bands" are now removed from the "rootstock" of the Heaven-High Tree. (Daniel 4:23, 26)

  With the iron and copper "bands" removed of "Gentile" governmental restraint, the counsel of Romans 13th chapter to pay taxes and give humans "tribute" as "superior authorities" should have ended in 1914. The year of 1914 should have freed "christians" from "Gentile trampling" and control where "christians" would not have to answer to human governments again. That's if the "Gentile Times" had ended, in 1914. As they explain in their literature, the WTS.

  There is nothing wicked about securing one's legally guarranteed freedoms to practice their religion. What is wicked is for a nation that prides itself on freedom and liberty to allow petty tyrants to decide who can and can't practice their religion freely without restraint.

  "A restraint" that will always be there, until "christians" are freed from "Gentile domination" of political governments on earth. Clearly, based upon your statement above, the "Gentile Times" are still upon us. The political, governmental "restraint" is still with us, where "christians" must bow to the "superior authorities" in the form of oppressive laws that outlaw "christianity" altogether in many parts of the world. Also more tolerable countries still plague "christians" along with everyone else of all faiths and belief systems with heavy taxation, oppressive laws, and the paying of human "tribute" to a "wicked", "beast-like" earthly governmental system that tortures the innocent and rewards the evil-doers of our times.

  "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:24 KJV)

  Evidently, the year of 1914 did not bring an end of the "Gentile Times" or political world domination over "christians". "Christians" are no different than anyone else. They are still in subjection to them, as superior authorities. "Christians" are still begging for mercy and leniency from the governments under Satanic control. Even "lobbying" now for freedoms and rights under Governmental agencies, representing Satan's power. (Luke 4:6) Christians, are now endowed with their latest "tool" for empowerment to give them their precious christian "rights," -- that particular country's Holy Constitution. So when the Bible doesn't work, "christians" can effectively use this new "tool" to get what they want. Some religions, like the WTS will even "get in bed" with the United Nations Organization, as NGO's, to ascertain and secure those wonderful constitutional christian "rights" you speak of.

  So sad. "Christian" Jerusalem continues to be "trampled under foot, by the nations". Their "trampling" continues, just as brutally as before 1914, than after 1914, as far as christian "rights" are concerned upon this earth.

  The year of 1914 brought no change in this earthly scene or condition.

  Thus when the above information is made available to deep-thinking christians, they invariably all come to the same inescapable and incontrovertible realization, that the much proclaimed date of 1914 acting as The Foundation Teaching and Fundamental Truth of the Watchtower Society for the past 125 years, is a easily provable FALSE DOCTRINE concocted and "artfully contrived" by wicked men of Satan. The 1914 doctrine, as taught by these true modern-day "Pharisees" of our times, sadly has been mercilessly executed upon ignorant and hapless Jehovah's Witnesses to their lasting detriment. So sad. (2 Peter 1:16; Mark 7:7-9)

  tfs
• 
  25

  You Know: Matt. 10:11-14, Please Respond

  by tfs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  matthew 10:11-14 says,.

  "into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave.

  when you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  tfs

  You Know,

  Paul counseled no such thing for christians to "LEGALLY establish the good news" using "Caesar's" assistance. The problem I think, is the way JWs use and intrepret Philippians 1:7 in your Bible.

  The New World Translation, uniquely renders the expression as a pre-supposed "legal establishment" of the good news. But to my knowledge, it is the only Bible that says such a thing. This is an inaccurate translation of Paul's thoughts to justify wicked WTS ends.

  Here are a few examples of how the expression is intrepreted by other Bible scholars and translations of Philippians 1:7.

  "the defense and confirmation of the gospel" [King James Version]

  "defending and proving the authority of the gospel" [Phillips Modern English]

  "the defense and confirmation of the gospel" [Revised Standard Version]

  "defending and establishing the gospel" [Jerusalem Bible]

  "defending and confirming the gospel" [New International Version]

  "defense and confirmation of the good news" [Amplified Bible]

  "defense and confirmation of the gospel" [New American Standard]

  "defending and proving the truth of the good news" [New Century Version]

  "defense and confirmation of the good news" [The Modern Language Bible]

  "to vouch for the truth of the gospel" [The New English Bible]

  So the expression, "LEGALLY establishing the good news" in reality seems to have been created by JWs for their own particular agenda. Can you show another translation with that same rendering?

  tfs