aqwsed12345 said:
"But some, placing the commas differently than they are commonly in the Greek text, say that a full stop must be put after 'flesh', and thus in the following words, there are the Jews' usual ancient Doxologies referring to God the Father, so this verse means..."
That reminds me of a song that was popular when I was in school....it sounded like: "comma, comma, comma, comma chameleon..." 🎶🦎😆
Sea Breeze said:
"Polycarp...says...Ignatius...says...Justin Martyr..."
So, chapter 9 of the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians is complete garbage. He says the resurrection already took place in his day, even though the Bible teaches that the resurrection of the anointed does not take place until after Christ takes the throne in heaven, which didn't happen in the day of Polycarp just like it didn't take place in 1914. (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm)
From chapter 9: "I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as you have seen [set] before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. [This do] in the assurance that all these have not run Philippians 2:16; Galatians 2:2 in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are [now] in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead."
Chapter 10 of Polycarp to the Philippians is also ridiculous. He quotes Tobit, which is the type of fable story Paul warned Timothy against listening to...
"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, 1 Peter 2:17 and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because “alms delivers from death.” Tobit 4:10, Tobit 12:9 Be all of you subject one to another 1 Peter 5:5 “having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,”1 Peter 2:12 that you may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! Isaiah 52:5 Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct."
Polycarp quotes Ignatius numerous times in his "letter". Ignatius' Epistle to the Ephesians has the same kind of nonsense as what the JW Governing Body teaches about that false FDS doctrine...
Chapter 6 of the Epistle of Ignatius: "Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24:45 as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians chapter 2 says: "For whenever you are subject to the bishop as unto Jesus Christ, you appear to me to be living not the ordinary life of men, but after the manner of the life of Jesus Christ,[1] Who died for our sakes, that believing in His death you might escape death. It is necessary therefore that you should act, as indeed you do, in nothing without the bishop." Or chapter 7 "That is, he who acts in anything apart from the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons is not pure in conscience."
Of chapter 7 of Ignatius to the Philadelphians: "For, when I was among you, I cried, I spoke with a loud voice: Give heed to the bishop, and to the presbytery and deacons. Now, some suspected me of having spoken thus, as knowing beforehand the division caused by some among you. But He is my witness, for whose sake I am in bonds, that I got no intelligence from any man. But the Spirit proclaimed these words: Do nothing without the bishop..."
I will spare you the rest of Ignatius' nonsense, but if you are in the mood for a read that reminds you of a Watchtower article about obeying the Governing Body you can read it here...(https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm http://earlychristianwritings.com/srawley/trallians.html or just google Ignatius and read his epistles.)
Don't even get me started on Justin Martyr. Seriously.
From Chapter 5 of the First Apology of Justin Martyr - "And when Socrates endeavoured, by true reason and examination, to bring these things to light, and deliver men from the demons, then the demons themselves, by means of men who rejoiced in iniquity, compassed his death, as an atheist and a profane person, on the charge that “he was introducing new divinities;” and in our case they display a similar activity. For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue."
From Chapter 8 of the First Apology of Justin Martyr - "And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years."
The "Apostolic Fathers" might be better called the "Apostate Fathers". A lot of what they teach is similar to the false doctrines the GB teaches. The so-called "apostolic fathers" cannot be relied on for anything of substance as regards clarification of the truth.
Regardless of how you want to interpret Romans 9:5, the point of what Paul is saying can be found further down in the chapter...
"It is as he says also in Ho·seʹa: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not loved, ‘beloved’; and in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For Jehovah will make an accounting on the earth, concluding it and cutting it short.” Also, just as Isaiah foretold: “Unless Jehovah of armies had left an offspring to us, we should have become just like Sodʹom, and we should have resembled Go·morʹrah.” What are we to say, then? That people of the nations, although not pursuing righteousness, attained righteousness, the righteousness that results from faith; but Israel, although pursuing a law of righteousness, did not attain to that law. For what reason? Because they pursued it, not by faith, but as by works. They stumbled over the “stone of stumbling”; as it is written: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, but the one who rests his faith on it will not be disappointed.”
There are redeemable Christians to be found in all parts of the world. Having a label of "Christian" or "Jehovah's Witness" or "non-Jehovah's Witness" is not the important thing. There were faithful Christians in the first century who died before they knew that circumcision was not necessary for salvation. There are Christians today who don't know their right hand from their left.
"For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, so that no one might boast in the sight of God. But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.”"
If someone doesn't have the exact correct idea about God, the ransom is still enough to purchase the life of that one. When Jesus comes, he will make all things clear. And it won't be whether or not we got every little prophecy right or every little grammatical interpretation right that matters. It will be our faith and our love.
"Love never fails."
Romans 9:14-18...
"What are we to say, then? Is there injustice with God? Certainly not! For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.” So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharʹaoh: “For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.” So, then, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, but he lets whomever he wishes become obstinate."
Jehovah has assigned Jesus to be the judge. Thank God.
Romans 9:5 says: "God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen."
