"Can not" and "Must not"? Each and every living person, no matter what faith or religion or organization with which one chooses to cooperate or be affiliated, makes one's own decisions and stands responsible for the choices one has made. Nobody says "cannot" or "mustn't".
TheOldHippie
JoinedPosts by TheOldHippie
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JW's using apostate literature?
by SammyJoUK inok, hi and firstly if you get to see this more than once i apologise, but then i don't have a lot of choice, i need help quickly if possible.. i have a friend that i have been witnessing to for the past 6 years.. she has been in the witnesses for 25 years and yet god is moving.
an example of this, and it is by no means the best one, is that this week she put through my door two christian tracts that had been put together by sgm international ( http://www.infocomp.torun.pl/sgm/ ) .
the ones she gave me where not ones containing doctrinal issues, but basic gospel ones.. .
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The Faithful? Slave Class Substitutes Calculations
by TheOldHippie inok, here are the faithful slave class calculations, incorporating their substitues and the substitutes' substitutes.
a bit dull and heavy (hello, larsguy!
.......), but based on population statistics and mathematics.. in 1935, there were 52,465 proessing to be of the remnant.
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TheOldHippie
OK, here are the Faithful Slave Class Calculations, incorporating their Substitues and the Substitutes' Substitutes. A bit dull and heavy (hello, Larsguy! .......), but based on population statistics and mathematics.
In 1935, there were 52,465 proessing to be of the Remnant. This number 5 years later dropped to 27,711. Not so strange, considering the Great Crowd had risen and caused many to change sides. In 1950, the number had sunk to 22,723. I would suspect an over-mortality due to the War, so calculations are difficult. OK, let us therefore be gentle and nice and liberal, and start off with that very year, 1950, and the 22,723 professing ones.
How old were they? Who knows? Let us continue our gentle touch and suppose they were rather young, based on the present Governing Body members, professing Remnant members some of us know, and not stretching the age limit any further than to the fact they had had to have been there in 1935, when the general call ended (although Russell thought the general call ended back in 1881), so let us assume they as a group were born 1910-1915 onwards. To make it simple, then, the oldest ones were in 1950 some 40 years. Wrong of course, but again, just to make it simple.
This would mean, based on Western nations' death rates, a death rate of 2 % annually. So, 22,723 x 2 % x 50 years would mean all of them had died by now. OK, so because we have 8,661 professing Remnant members in 2000, it means they are all Substitutes, in other words that (8,661 / 22,723) 38 % of the 1950 Remnant have since proved apostates or faithless and not faithful, and have left. They say rebellion against them is equal to rebellion towards God, but have rebelled themselves.
Not so bad figures. But, it gets worse: In 1960, there were 13,911 professing to be of the Remnant. That means, from 1950 there had been an annual loss of 3.8 %. If that death rate had continued, we should by now have a number of 7,233 below zero, as 21,144 would have died since 1960. So 7,233 plus 8,661 make up 15,894 Substitutes, or 114 % of the 1960 number. Meaning, that not only has the majority of the Remnant been faithless, but the majority of the Substitutes have themselves have had to be substitued because of faithlessness.
OK, we move on to 1970, when there were 10,526. Annual loss 2.4 %, meaning that with such a rate continued, we should today have 2,948. Therefore, 5,713 of today's professing Remnant are Substitues based on what has happened since 1970, or 54 % of the 1970 number. More than half of the 1970 Remnant has left.
Then, strange numbers began occuring, as the 1980 number is 9,564 and the 1990 number is 8,869 and finally year 2000 with 8,661. The annual loss in the 50s was 3.8 %, in the 60s 2.4 %, then in the 70s only 0.9 %, in the 80s the impossible 0.7 % and in the 90s the even more impossible 0.2 %.
But what does that mean? It means that such a death rate is impossible, and that there therefore is a vast number of Substitutes coming in. And what does that again mean? That the Remnant is leaving, defecting, becoming faithless towards the same rules and regulations and legalism which they demand that the Great Crowd has to follow, and that they are so doing (defecting)in huge numbers. If therefore, these numbers are to be taken seriously, 20 % of the 1980 remnant have since left us, and that is so even with the impossible death rate stated. Had the 1970s death rate continued, it would mean that 50 % of the 1970 remnant have since turned faithless.
Pfui! Tiresome. Heavy. But, now it has been done. So here you are, the Ultimate Calculations at your service. -
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Interesting Correspondence - 1919
by RR ini thought i'd share this little letter with you.
it was written in 1919 from the society to a colporteur [pioneer] and former watch tower pilgrim [traveling overseer or representative.].
it should be noted that the hutchinson's were long time pioneers during the russell years, and br.
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TheOldHippie
"refused to offer Rutherford's books"
I wasn't aware that Rutherford had written any books as early as 1919? -
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Some forgotten statements....
by refiners fire injehovahs witness prophetic failure is not simply a matter of failed dates.. there are a whole lot of other aspects to the prophetic expectation.. just with regards to "1975", two aspects immediately spring to mind.. the decline of world religion and the ensuing attack upon religion by the united nations.. both of these "prerequisites" to the 1975 armaggedon have now slipped into distant memory, and are now forgotten.
they are hardly mentioned any more in watchtowers.just to remind doubters what was said.... .
wt august 1, 1971:.
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TheOldHippie
Hello, Dungbeetle dear, just a question, as you said:
**********************************************************************"Stop persecuting jehovah's Witnesses, or God will kill you and your Nazi Party."Well, God did neither.
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I must have been very absent-minded these past decades, as I haven't noticed them around, but please enlighten me therefore, as to their present whereabouts, as I haven't seen them since '45?
greetings, -
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Leo Greenlees,
by Kiwi ini seem to remember something on the board about leo greenlees being removed from bethel & the gb.
can anyone give me information about this.
is he still allive and where?
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TheOldHippie
If someone had bothered to check with the online US registers, they would have found out that Greenlees died on 17th february, 1988.
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Lies in the Dateline Show
by TheMatrix infirst lie: erica.
i dont believe erica lied about her abuse.
obviously it must be true, even mr. beliz confessed that he touched her inappropriately.
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TheOldHippie
What I find a bit interesting, is that close to all posters on this board seem to be long-time friends of Barbara Anderson or Bowen, or previous neighbours, or their mothers-in-law have been close friends for decades etc. Hmmm, either the US isn't as big as I once thought it was, more like a close neighbourhood it seems, or there is some sort of a bandwagon - effect going on .....
Closing note: Here agin the 2-witness-rule pops up. It doesn't exist in these cases; one child molested in one case, one in a new case, make two witnesses and possibility of congregational verdict. Letters and special meetings have stated that and overruled previous statements in the in this respect outdated Manual book. -
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Another Watchtower Lie?
by DakotaRed inapplication of "two witnesses" in the congregation.
"the assertion has been made that jehovah's witnesses take no action when an allegation of child abuse comes to the attention of the elders unless the accusation is verified by two separate witnesses, and that's just simply not true.".
page 108 and 109 of the pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock (elders manual), contains the following instructions:.
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TheOldHippie
I will once again, though, state that in this respect the Manual is outdated. At meetings for elders at circuit conventions; during the circuit servants' visits; at the elders' ministry school; as well as information received through letters from the Society - thru all of these channels, the information has been given that in child molestation cases, one witness or victim in each of two or more different cases make up the sufficient number of witnesses to have the molestor convicted.
Since these letters are not handed out and / or not allowed to be copied, I guess some of you will claim they are non-existant, that I just make this up - but I don't. A one-to-one serial molestor is treated as a being-witnessed-by-may molestor.
Whether congregation so-and-so follows this, is another matter, but the guidelines have been given, so they are without excuse.
As for this whole topic, given that the Dateline isn't aired in Europe, I find it most disturbing, and think the Society has handled the thing most unfortunately. Bowen, Anderson etc. must have known what was coming when they went out public in such a way, but what else could they do, when there was no response. No matter whether the Society has played by the book or seemingly have done no mistakes, in the public eye they have made huge crooks of themselves. I think it is strange that no member of the Governing Body uses the possibility to comment and "set things straight" from their point of view, but in stead hide behind one spokesman (who like all spokesmen is very easy to shoot, as he is in no position to change guidelines, but can only mechanically repeat what he is told to state) or also behind "no comments".
Most unfortunate indeed. -
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WTS denies use of 2 witness rule for abuse cases
by jschwehm inhey gang-.
i got another email from watchtower pr.
it has their general counsel stating the following in regard to child abuse cases:.
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TheOldHippie
All I am saying, is that the Manual is some years old, letters are constantly sent, viewpoints are updated etc. At Elders' meetings during CC, at Elders' courses, and at CO's meetings, letters have been read that state that repeated accusations from different victims make up the same burden of evidence as would several witnesses to one crime. One child makes an accusation, later another one, and that in the congregation is sufficient for dealing with the person as if it were two witnesses to one instance. If you choose not to believe me, that is your privilege, but that is a fact, as I have been present at these meetings and have heard the letters being read and discussed.
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WTS denies use of 2 witness rule for abuse cases
by jschwehm inhey gang-.
i got another email from watchtower pr.
it has their general counsel stating the following in regard to child abuse cases:.
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TheOldHippie
The two witnesses can refer to one witness in two different cases. If there is one accusation and only one witness, the child itself, and then later another accusation with also only one witness, the other child, then there are two witnesses, one in two separate cases, and so no matter what the offender says, he is out. This is how it has been practiced in my country for some years. And so I cannot see it differently than that the WTBTS spokesman says it correctly, at least this is so over here.
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YOU'RE GONNA LOVE THIS...Gr-r-r
by Trotafox inas i said in an earlier post, i am posting about dateline on another christian board which is quite obscure.
i am battling with a dude (more than likely) named "french knight".
sounds like a "hiding out" jw elder.
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TheOldHippie
SixOfNine said:
That sounds like Frenchy allright. His words sound accurate to me. The only thing I'm unclear about is:
quote:
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The rules state that if a second party comes up with the same type of offense to another incident then this is acceptable as being the second witness to the matter.
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Not sure when or where this became part of JW policy? Anyone know exactly?
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This has been part of the police for some years. If there are two or more accussations, that counts as two or more witnesses. This has been practized in my country for some years.