thinker

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Posts by thinker

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  38

  Brand New Religion

  by BugEye in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  new religion.

  i am hereby instituting a brand new religion.

  we will from henceforth be called the church of wendy mommy.. we are a multifaceted organisation and will have our headquarters in tampa florida 'cause i know someone there and the weather is good.. we have 3 leaders or gods if you will.

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  thinker

  Nice try Bugeye, but Wendy/Mommy is already a baptised member of the Leaning Tower Bath & Shower Society!
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  19

  NEED HELP !!! 7000 yrs. ??

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the wt claims that each "day" in genesis (chap.1) is really 7000 yrs.

  can anyone provide an explaination of this belief?

  please list references from wt literature or scripture that backs up this idea.. personally, i can find nothing; which is interesting since so much jw doctrine and teaching hinges on this number "7000".. thinker

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  thinker

  After reading all the WT quotes and all the referenced scriptures in context, I believe I'm ready to comment on the JW doctrine that states each "creation day" in Genesis is actually 7000 yrs. long:

  1) Despite the fact that Genesis 1 clearly defines "a day", five times, as "evening and morning"; the WT ignores this and informs us that a "day" can mean an indefinite period of time; as in "..in my day..."
  2) To prove this they quote HALF of 2Peter 3:8, "... that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,.." (BTW, the 2nd half says "and a thousand years as one day." So Christ's 1000 yrs reign could last only one day !). Obviously, 1000 years is not long enough to fit their preconcieved ideas, so...
  3) They use numerology (isn't that an occult practice?) to show the special significance of the number seven. (w61 6/15 378-9) "The Seventh Day-A Sabbath of Rest ***
  The number seven is used frequently in the Bible and carries with it the thought of completeness." And...
  4) Use a vague Jewish quote from a book written in 1626 (same article as above). (I'm sure any of us could run right down to the local library and check the context of this quote !! LOL)
  5) After completely ignoring the 5 definitions provided in Gen. for a day, they then note with interest that this definition is missing from the 7th day account and conclude that the 7th day is still continuing. (They didn't seem to care about the other 5, so why should they care about this one?)
  6) Then using 4026 BC as man's starting point, factoring in their own WWI prediction (failed, changed, and re-changed; then agreed upon 11 yrs. after the fact-1925) they come to the completely uneventful year 1975 as 6000 years + 1000 yrs. of Christ's reign = 7000 years. By this complex formula, based on THEIR OWN unfulfilled predictions, they conclude that each "creation day" is actually 7000 yrs. long.
  7) Then, to back up this bizarre thought process, they focus on the meaning of the word "rest" (Gen. 2:2) in the account of the seventh day of creation. (w67 7/15 446-7 ): "According to the Bible timetable, man’s history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve." They then refernce scripture (it-1 545 Creation ): "Also, more than 4,000 years after the seventh day, or God’s rest day, commenced, Paul indicated that it was still in progress. At Hebrews 4:1-11 he referred to the earlier words of David (Ps 95:7, 8, 11) and to Genesis 2:2 and urged: 'Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest.' " So the definition of "rest" refered to in Ps 95:7, 8, 11 & Hebrews 4:1-11 is "the time period from 4026 BC to 2975 AD !!!??? Read those scriptures and insert the WT definition in each place you find the word "rest". Does it make sense?? NO.
  8) To further cloud matters, the WT says about the word "history": "Genesis 2:4 states: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.” So the word as used in this sense apparently covers a time period far longer than each creative day." (w68 5/1 267-8 ). Please note that history means in the past, already happened. By this argument alone you can reason that the seventh day had a completion. Also in Heb. 4:4 ...and God rested...(past tense) amd Heb. 4:10 "...just as God DID from his own...(past tense).

  So to summarize:
  To accept this "spiritual food", all you have to do is
  1) Ignore the definition of "day" in Gen.1
  2) Define history as not only Past, but also Present & Future
  3) Ignore Heb. 1 "rested" and "did", past tense
  4) Accept the WT changing and failed prophesy to get to the number 7000
  5) Accept the definition of "rest" as the time period 4026 BC to 2975 AD
  6) Explain how Ps 95:7, 8, 11 & Hebrews 4:1-11 can deny a man already living from entering into a time period which encompasses his life !!!

  May God forgive me, but I'm starting to think that anyone who swallows all this deserves to be a JW.

  thinker
• 
  19

  NEED HELP !!! 7000 yrs. ??

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the wt claims that each "day" in genesis (chap.1) is really 7000 yrs.

  can anyone provide an explaination of this belief?

  please list references from wt literature or scripture that backs up this idea.. personally, i can find nothing; which is interesting since so much jw doctrine and teaching hinges on this number "7000".. thinker

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  thinker

  Thank you Blondie for the quotes. I had not seen them before. As with many other doctrines, it doesn't really clear things up; but I appreciate the info.

  Thinker
• 
  19

  NEED HELP !!! 7000 yrs. ??

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the wt claims that each "day" in genesis (chap.1) is really 7000 yrs.

  can anyone provide an explaination of this belief?

  please list references from wt literature or scripture that backs up this idea.. personally, i can find nothing; which is interesting since so much jw doctrine and teaching hinges on this number "7000".. thinker

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  thinker

  Thomas,
  2 Peter 3:8 mentions that a day is like 1000 years, not 7000.
• 
  19

  NEED HELP !!! 7000 yrs. ??

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the wt claims that each "day" in genesis (chap.1) is really 7000 yrs.

  can anyone provide an explaination of this belief?

  please list references from wt literature or scripture that backs up this idea.. personally, i can find nothing; which is interesting since so much jw doctrine and teaching hinges on this number "7000".. thinker

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  thinker

  The WT claims that each "day" in Genesis (chap.1) is really 7000 yrs. Can anyone provide an explaination of this belief? Please list references from WT literature or scripture that backs up this idea.

  Personally, I can find nothing; which is interesting since so much JW doctrine and teaching hinges on this number "7000".

  thinker
• 
  6

  No Special Relationship

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the following case illustrates, in legal terms, how the wt feels about it's members:.

  http://www.courts.state.me.us/99me144r.htm.

  maine supreme judicial court .

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  thinker

  The following case illustrates, in legal terms, how the WT feels about it's members:

  http://www.courts.state.me.us/99me144r.htm

  MAINE SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT
  Reporter of Decisions
  Decision: 1999 ME 144
  Docket: Cum-98-531
  Argued: May 4, 1999
  Decided: October 18, 1999

  BRYAN R.
  v.
  WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY
  OF NEW YORK, INC., et al.

  Bryan R. alleges that he was sexually abused during several of his adolescent years by Larry Baker, an adult member of his church. He has obtained a judgment against Baker, but his complaint against the church and its elders was dismissed by the Superior Court (Cumberland County, Calkins, J.) for failure to state a claim. He appeals from the judgment dismissing the claims against the church defendants. We affirm the judgment.

  BACKGROUND
  At some time in the past, also while Larry Baker was an adult member of the church, he molested a minor member of the congregation identified as "John Doe." The elders of the Augusta congregation knew that Baker had molested John Doe. Wells, LaBreck, and Bryan's stepfather, in their roles as the judicial body of the Augusta congregation, decided on the following response to Baker's actions: (1) they demoted Baker from "ministerial servant" to "baptized entry level member"; (2) they "privately rebuked" Baker; and (3) and they temporarily "forbade Baker from having any contact with minor members" of the church. The defendants did not alert the members of the church to Baker's misdeeds.
  Eventually, Baker was allowed by the defendants to resume activities as an ordinary member of the church. Bryan alleges that Baker was able to earn his trust and confidence because the church placed Baker in a position of leadership and respect. Bryan was molested by Baker from 1989 through 1992 while Bryan was a teenager and lived next door to Baker. He alleges that his stepfather, who was aware of Baker's history, nonetheless allowed Baker to spend time alone with Bryan at his home. As a result of Baker's repeated sexual abuse, Bryan suffered significant emotional harm necessitating psychiatric hospitalization.
  Bryan filed this action against Baker, the church, and its elders to recover damages for the injuries he suffered as a result of Baker's assaults on him.

  The Watchtower Society, Robert Wells, and Pat LaBreck filed a motion to dismiss each of the claims against them.

  (reasons):
  Bryan alleges that Baker was "able to earn [Bryan's] trust and confidence" because of his position of power and authority in the church. These allegations place Baker in a relationship to Bryan that was not different in quality from any other member in good standing of the church.

  The crux of Bryan's claim is that the church, because of an alleged special relationship with its members , has a duty to protect its members from each other, at least when the church and its agents are aware of a potential danger posed by a member. Because the church elders knew of Baker's propensity to abuse children, Bryan argues that they had an independent duty to protect him from Baker.

  There is simply "no duty so to control the conduct of a third person as to prevent him from causing physical harm to another unless . . . a special relation exists between the actor and the other which gives to the other a right to protection."

  He (Bryan) bases the alleged fiduciary relationship on the "substantial trust and confidence" he placed in the church, and alleges that the church breached its fiduciary duty to him when it failed to warn him about Baker and failed to exert some type of control over Baker's actions.

  ...we decline to recognize a general common law duty on the part of an organization such as a church to protect its members from each other. (There is no special relationship between the WT and it's members)

  Bryan has not provided any support for his assertion that a religious organization has a fiduciary relationship with its members that requires it generally to protect those members from other members of the church who may present a danger. Nor have we ever found a fiduciary relationship to exist in the circumstances presented here.

  The allegation that Bryan placed "substantial trust and confidence" in the elders of the church and trusted them "to protect him and guide him" does not set forth the factual foundations for a special responsibility on the part of the church. Such vague and nonspecific allegations are wholly insufficient to make out a claim of a special relationship between the organization and its members.

  Bryan next claims that the defendants may be responsible for intentionally inflicting emotional distress upon him. If allowed to proceed, Bryan would be required to demonstrate that the church's conduct was "so extreme and outrageous as to exceed all possible bounds of decency and must be regarded as atrocious [and] utterly intolerable in a civilized community."

  In support of his claim, Bryan alleges that the church knew of Baker's propensity to harm children, that it failed to announce Baker's misdeeds to the congregation, that, through its agents, it devised a plan to address his transgressions, and that this plan was "woefully inadequate" to protect against future harm of minors, including minor members of the church. Bryan asserts that the church's failure to excommunicate Baker, its failure to shun him, and its eventual decision to allow Baker to a resume a position of leadership and respect within the church constituted acts that were sufficiently extreme and outrageous that they exceeded all possible bounds of decency.

  We do not lightly dismiss the harm caused by the sexual abuse of children, nor do we misapprehend the enormity of that harm if inflicted in the context of religious activities. On these facts, however, we conclude that the effort to hold the church responsible, in addition to the wrongdoer himself, would require direct inquiry into the religious sanctions, discipline, and terms of redemption or forgiveness that were available within the church in the context of this claim, an inquiry that would require secular investigation of matters that are almost entirely ecclesiastical in nature.

  Only where a particular duty based upon the unique relationship of the parties has been established may a defendant be held responsible, absent some other wrongdoing, for harming the emotional well-being of another.

  FOOTNOTES:
  Bryan alleges that among the options available to the defendants upon discovering Baker's misdeeds were:

  (1) "kick[ing] him out" of the Watchtower Society;

  (2) publicly rebuking him for his actions;

  (3) requiring him to undergo "professional evaluation for sexual impulse control";

  (4) and requiring him to undergo "professional treatment for sexual impulse control."

  Bryan alleges that the defendants took none of these steps.

  So we see:
  1) Confessed child molesters are considered "member in good standing of the church".
  2) The WT denies it has a special relationship with it's members.
  3) The WT will handle child abusers as it sees fit: "..we conclude that the effort to hold the church responsible, in addition to the wrongdoer himself, would require direct inquiry into the religious sanctions, discipline, and terms of redemption or forgiveness that were available within the church in the context of this claim,.."

  thinker
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  20

  This hit a little too close to home

  by mommy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the following appeared in the newspaper this morning:.

  a 17-year-old highlands school student was in jail thursday on charges that he had developed a hit list, naming several fellow students he supposedly planned to kill.

  highlands police say they arrested andrew douglas quintero, a junior, without incident on wednesday and charged him with 10 misdemeanor counts of communicating threats.. in an interview thursday, highlands school principal jack brooks indicated he wasn't sure whether the student intended to carry out the threats, but said he wasn't taking any chances.. "whether this was done out of humor or it was an expression of anger, i had no idea," brooks said.

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  thinker

  Just recieved this from my mother:

  Let's see if I understand how America works lately . . .
  >
  > If a woman burns her thighs on the hot coffee she was holding in her lap
  > while driving, she blames the restaurant.
  >
  > If your teen-age son kills himself, you blame the rock 'n' roll music or
  > musician he liked.
  >
  > If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your
  > family blames the tobacco company.
  >
  > If your daughter gets pregnant by the football captain you blame the
  > school for poor sex education.
  >
  > If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, you blame
  the bartender.
  >
  > If your cousin gets AIDS because the needle he used to shoot up with heroin
  was dirty, you blame the government for not providing clean ones.
  > If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television.
  >
  > If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun
  > manufacturer.
  >
  > If a crazed person climbs into the cockpit of an airliner and tries to kill
  the pilots at 35,000 feet and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of
  the deceased blames the airline.
  >
  > I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore.
  >
  > So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this
  > computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK?
• 
  20

  This hit a little too close to home

  by mommy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the following appeared in the newspaper this morning:.

  a 17-year-old highlands school student was in jail thursday on charges that he had developed a hit list, naming several fellow students he supposedly planned to kill.

  highlands police say they arrested andrew douglas quintero, a junior, without incident on wednesday and charged him with 10 misdemeanor counts of communicating threats.. in an interview thursday, highlands school principal jack brooks indicated he wasn't sure whether the student intended to carry out the threats, but said he wasn't taking any chances.. "whether this was done out of humor or it was an expression of anger, i had no idea," brooks said.

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  thinker

  I've given lot of thought to this phenomenon lately. I feel most of the people who commit these vile acts are suicidal. It used to be that the majority of suicidal people went off alone and quietly ended their lives. Now they seem to want to take as many people as possible with them before they do themselves in. Why the change? I don't believe it has anything to do with guns, violence in movies, video games, etc. It has everything to do with the "victimization" attitude. No one seems to want to take responsiblity for their own actions. If something bad happens to you you will find lots of people who will be happy to tell you that it's not your fault, you're just a victim of someone else. When it's someone else's fault it makes it much harder to do something about improving your situation; trying to change others is never as easy as changing yourself. So now when someone gets so depressed as to want to end their life, they feel justified in killing others as well.
  We can pass all kinds of restrictive laws and regulations, but things will not improve until we start teaching people to start taking responsiblity for their own lives.

  thinker
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  11

  Should My Mother Shun My Daughter?

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i don't know why i never spotted this before, but my daughter from my first marriage has just pointed out to me that her grandmother - my jw mother - has never ever contacted her since she was a child.

  how would her grandmother respond if she - my daughter - made some contact?.

  my first response was to say that i'm sure she would be delighted to hear from her, but then i got to wondering.

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  thinker

  Englishman,
  I think what your daughter is experiencing is "guilt by association". I have some experience with this because my wife's friends and family feel it is necessary to shun me, even though I've never been a JW. I guess have a close relationship with a "shunee" is reason enough for them.
  Wouldn't want to open any loopholes of communication would be my guess.

  thinker
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  29

  June1,2001WT QFR Confess to Elders?

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (entire article).

  questions from readers.

  in view of jehovahs willingness to forgive sins by the merit of the ransom sacrifice, why is it necessary for christians to confess to the older men in the congregation?.

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  thinker

  Personally, I think this article is great. Just think of how it will affect the already declining membership numbers....