thinker

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Posts by thinker

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  15

  The Bible: Most flawed document ever?

  by bboyneko in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i came across this essay by joseph c. sommer:.

  contradictions.

  the fact that the bible contains contradictions is one reason why humanists consider the book to be an unreliable authority.

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  thinker

  For a more complete list try:
  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

  thinker
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  18

  Met my first Elder after diassociation

  by aud8 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  well i met my first witness (and it would have to be an elder who i always got on well with) last night after my disassociation 3 weeks ago and i was not prepared for how hard it felt.

  i had the most human reaction of recognising someone i knew and had to stop myself saying hi.

  he just rushed past me.

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  thinker

  Hi Aud,
  You said:

  I had the most human reaction of recognising someone I knew and had to stop myself saying hi.

  Why are you following the rules of an organization that you no longer belong to? I asked my wife this same question not long after she DA'd. She now treats everyone the same, JW or not. Try being pleasant and see what happens. If they want to act like asses let it be their problem, not yours.

  thinker
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  8

  Things JWs cannot do...

  by thinker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a long while ago i ran across a website that had a list of things jws cannot do.

  as you can imagine it was a very long list.. if anyone knows the address of this site i'd love to have it.. if not, then perhaps we can start our own list right here.... thinker

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  thinker

  Thanks so much, Mango. That's the one I was looking for.
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  8

  Things JWs cannot do...

  by thinker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a long while ago i ran across a website that had a list of things jws cannot do.

  as you can imagine it was a very long list.. if anyone knows the address of this site i'd love to have it.. if not, then perhaps we can start our own list right here.... thinker

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  thinker

  A long while ago I ran across a website that had a list of things JWs cannot do. As you can imagine it was a VERY long list.
  If anyone knows the address of this site I'd love to have it.
  If not, then perhaps we can start our own list right here...

  thinker
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  4

  "Old Light" from the apostles ?

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the watchtower society uses the apostles words to justify the act of shunning.. "purposes served by disfellowshipping: .

  upholds jehovah's name and standard of righteousness.

  (acts 15:14; 1 pet.

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  thinker

  The Watchtower Society uses the apostles words to justify the act of shunning.
  "Purposes served by disfellowshipping:
  Upholds Jehovah's name and standard of righteousness.
  (Acts 15:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; compare Isaiah 52:5.)
  Protects the purity of the congregation. (I Cor. 5:1-13;
  May correct the unrepentant wrongdoer, bringing him to
  his senses. (2 Cor. 2:6-8) " (Pay attention to yourself...)

  In reading the bible, the words of the apostles sometimes contradict the words and actions of Jesus, who showed love for ALL men. The question is "How should one view the teachings of the apostles? Are they infallible? Are they equal to the teachings of Jesus? Can the teachings of the apostles be abandoned, changed, or ignored?"

  1) The WT claims that the apostles were the first faithful and discreet slave. Russell was said to have "revived the great truths taught by Jesus and the apostles." (see Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p. 17)

  2) The GB nows holds a position equal to the apostles.
  "Christian elders govern by using their "abilities to direct" (Greek ky-ber-NE seis) in providing leadership and guidance in local congregations. (1 Corinthians 12:28) But the apostles and other elders in Jerusalem served as a body to give guidance and counsel to all the congregations. (Acts 15:1,2,27-29) Today, therefore, a governing body of elders provides spiritual oversight for Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide.
  (Watchtower; December 15, 1989; p. 21)

  Confident of the loyalty of his faithful creatures, Jehovah delegates authority. So does his Son. From among his anointed followers, "the faithful and discreet slave," he has chosen a few to serve as a visible governing body. (Matthew 24:45) In the first century, this group was composed of the apostles and several older men in Jerusalem.
  (Watchtower; Jan. 15, 1990; p. 26)

  "They have a modern Governing Body of older Christian men from various parts of the earth who give needed oversight to the worldwide activities of God's people. these men, like the apostlesand older men in Jerusalem in the first century, are anointed members of the faithful and discreet slave class designated by Jesus to care for all of his Kingdom interests here upon earth."(The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1989; p. 6)

  WT June 1, 82:
  "Today, a remnant of this 'faithful slave' is still alive on earth. They occupy a position similar to that of Paul...when that apostle said of the wonderful truths...:"It is to us God has revealed them through his spirit."

  WT 15/01/94, p. 16
  "In the past, Jehovah ruled and revealed truths through individuals, such as prophets, kings and apostles. Jesus said that during his royal presence, he would identify a faithful body of followers, a 'faithful and discreet slave'. In 1919 this slave was identified as the remnant of anointed Christians. Since then, as represented by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, it has been the center of theocracy on earth."

  3) The teachings ("spiritual food") of the FDS is subject to change ("progressive"). "From Pentecost, A.D.33, up to this very present hour this has been lovingly and carefully performed. Yes, and these "domestics" have been fed on progressive spiritual food that keeps them abreast of the "bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established." (The Watchtower July 15, 1960, p. 435 )

  4) Practices once taught by the FDS are now abandoned.
  *** jv 200 14 "They Are No Part of the World" ***
  "Practices That Have Been Abandoned
  This Christmas celebration at Brooklyn Bethel in 1926 was their last. The Bible Students gradually came to appreciate that neither the origin of this holiday nor the practices associated with it honored God
  For years, Bible Students wore a cross and crown as a badge of identification, and this symbol was on the front cover of the “Watch Tower” from 1891 to 1931. But in 1928 it was emphasized that not a decorative symbol but one’s activity as a witness showed he was a Christian. In 1936 it was pointed out that the evidence indicates that Christ died on a stake, not a two-beamed cross
  In their “Daily Manna” book, Bible Students kept a list of birthdays. But after they quit celebrating Christmas and when they realized that birthday celebrations were giving undue honor to creatures (one reason that early Christians never celebrated birthdays), the Bible Students quit this practice too
  For some 35 years, Pastor Russell thought that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was God’s stone witness, corroborating Biblical time periods. (Isa. 19:19) But Jehovah’s Witnesses have abandoned the idea that an Egyptian pyramid has anything to do with true worship." (See “Watchtower” issues of November 15 and December 1, 1928)

  5) It seems that, being "imperfect men"; the FDS sometimes gets things wrong. The apostles were just men. Their words are just as subject to change as Russells, Rutherfords, Knorrs, and the Governing Bodys. If Russell was a "faithful and discreet slave" and his teachings are considered "old light", then are not the apostles' teachings "very old light"?

  thinker
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  42

  ExJW's Make Better Lovers?

  by COMF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i don't mean in general, i mean for exjw's... is there a noticable advantage to pairing with someone with the same background?

  i'd like to read your thoughts and experiences on this subject.. i've been romantically involved few times, since "the light got brighter" for me about the organization, with people who didn't know anything about jw's before meeting me.

  one of them viewed my exjw activity as a bit obsessive but okay as long as she got to obsess on her favorite obesssions, too.

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  thinker

  Hi Comf,
  As a never-been-a-JW who married an ex-lifelong-JW, let me say that if a person is interested in a future with you then they will most likely want to understand your past. When I met my wife she was the first JW I knew. I never even had one knock on my door! I hadn't had any reason to want to know anything about the Org. Now, one year later, I frequent a JW forum and have devoted a large number of megabytes to WT research. I did this to better understand the person I love.
  Searching out ex-JWs might give you an opening for starting a conversation, but it won't guarantee a good match. Keep open to all possibilities. My wife and I are living proof that it can be a great match.
  As far as the question "Do ex-JWs make better lovers?" I must say "Yes..Oh yeeessss.. oh my god yesssssssss!!!"

  Hang in there and don't worry. I always seemed to meet women when I wasn't really trying.

  thinker
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  137

  Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

  are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

  if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

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  thinker

  Duns,
  Please reexamine the WT quotes I provided. I did not make any claim concerning the truthfulness of the statements.
  What these quotes DO show is that the WT CHANGED the words from the monthly magizines when they made the bound volumes and CDs.
  WHY? These were direct quotes from someone outside the organization!
  

  w89 1/1 12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***
  [as originally published in Watchtower magazine]

  "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."
  w89 1/1 12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***

  [as it appears on Watchtower bound volumes & CD-ROMs]
  "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our day."

  (and)

  tr (Truth book) pg.9 1 Grand Blessings from God Near at Hand! ***
  [as published prior to 1975]
  Also, as reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence." And he warned: "I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in."
  tr (Truth book) pg.9 1 Grand Blessings from God Near at Hand! ***
  [as published after to 1975]
  Also, as reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence." Based on what he knew was then going on in the world, it was his conclusion that soon "this world is going to be too dangerous to live in."

  What it really comes down to is this:
  I can disagree with active JWs, yet I still respect them for standing up for their beliefs. I would have more respect for the WT Oganization IF:
  1)IF they had stood by their principles and told the truth in their case against Bulgaria.
  2)IF they had not tried to cover-up their errors ands mistakes in the WTs I quoted.
  3) IF they had organized in Mexico as a RELIGIOUS organization rather than a CULTURAL organization.(a business decision)
  4) IF they told the truth about why WT literature no longer sold, but donations are asked for.(a business decision)

  During the history of the organization, the WT has shown a willingness to abandon Christian principles in order to expand the BUSINESS of it's "religion" and to present a good image to it's members and the general public; no matter how false that image may be. I cannot respect the actions of such an organization. Nor do I see them as christ-like. I DO respect the actions of indivdual JWs. I have no doubt there are many true christians amoung the JWs; what a shame their religion is more concerned with image and a successful business than the "truths" they claim to represent!
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  137

  Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

  are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

  if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

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  thinker

  Dear Duns,
  I was disappointed to see you had not replied yet. Perhaps you are researching the information I presented to you.?
  You seem fond of Kant. Have you read "What is Enlightenment?"(1784) ?

  Quote:
  "Enlightenment is man's leaving his self-caused immaturity. Immaturity is the incapacity to use one's intelligence without the guidance of another. Such immaturity is self-caused if it is not caused by lack of intelligence, but by lack of determination and courage to use one's intelligence without being guided by another. Sapere Aude! [Dare to know!] Have the courage to use your own intelligence! is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
  "Through laziness and cowardice a large part of mankind, even after nature has freed them from alien guidance, gladly remain immature. It is because of laziness and cowardice that it is so easy for others to usurp the role of guardians. "
  "If I have a book which provides meaning for me, a pastor who has conscience for me,... then I do not need to exert myself. I do not have any need to think; ..."

  I believe many here on the forum will recognize the GB being described in the above quotes.
  I won't bore you with the WT quotes against "independent thinking".

  Hope to hear from you soon.
  Thinker
• 
  137

  Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

  are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

  if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

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  thinker

  Dun,
  I'd be happy to...

  Application No. 28626/95
  by Khristiansko Sdruzhenie "Svideteli na Iehova"
  (Christian Association Jehovah's Witnesses against Bulgaria
  The European Commission of Human Rights sitting in private on 3 July 1997.

  (A representative from the WT testified under oath): "As regards the alleged unlawful
  activities of Jehovah's Witnesses with children the applicant
  association submits that children cannot become members of the
  association but only participate, together with their parents, in the
  religious activities of the community."

  (and) "In respect of the refusal of blood transfusion, the applicant (Watchtower Society) association submits that while this is part of the religious doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses, its acceptance depends on the personal choice
  of the individual concerned. There are no religious sanctions for a
  Jehovah's Witness who chooses to accept blood transfusion."

  Are these truthful statements? Or are these truthful?:

  Hence a Christian who deliberately receives a blood transfusion and thus does not keep himself from blood will not prosper spiritually. According to the law of Moses, which set forth shadows of things to come, the receiver of a blood transfusion must be cut off from God's people by excommunication or disfellowshiping.(The Watchtower January 15, 1961, page 64*** )

  Recognized by Our Conduct
  Consistent with that understanding of matters, beginning in 1961 any who ignored the divine requirement, accepted blood transfusions, and manifested an unrepentant attitude were disfellowshipped from the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses." Proclaimers, 1993, page 183-4.

  Also...

  w89 1/1 12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***
  [as originally published in Watchtower magazine]

  "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."
  w89 1/1 12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***

  [as it appears on Watchtower bound volumes & CD-ROMs]
  "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our day."

  (and)

  tr (Truth book) pg.9 1 Grand Blessings from God Near at Hand! ***
  [as published prior to 1975]
  Also, as reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence." And he warned: "I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in."
  tr (Truth book) pg.9 1 Grand Blessings from God Near at Hand! ***
  [as published after to 1975]
  Also, as reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence." Based on what he knew was then going on in the world, it was his conclusion that soon "this world is going to be too dangerous to live in."

  Why the deliberate change?

  There's more, if you'd like...

  thinker
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  137

  Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

  are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

  if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

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  thinker

  Hello Duns,
  Can you answer me something please? If the WTS is all about Truth then why do they try to lie and deceive? I'm not talking about changed predictions or policies. What I have proof of is blatant lies and cover-ups; most of these deceptions were aimed at JW's, not the general public.

  thinker