<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/aion_lim.html> .
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/time_12.html> .
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/time_13.html> .
Narkissos
Btw,
if "eternal/everlasting" in the Bible doesn't mean "eternal," how can this help in making a difference between "heaven" and "earth"? Why would "eternal/everlasting life" in heaven mean anything more than "to an age"?
As the WT points out, those in heaven are called immortal:
" The Greek word translated "immortality" (athanasia) is formed from the negative a and from thanatos, meaning "death." Immortality thus has the basic sense of ‘without death,’ or deathlessness."
thinker
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/aion_lim.html> .
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/time_12.html> .
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/time_13.html> .
Hi Gumby,
In Genesis 2: 9 God puts two trees in the middle of the garden. One tree is the Tree of Life and the other is the Tree of death if eaten from. The reading of these verses indicate to the reader that had Adam not eaten from the tree of death (knowledge of good and bad) and eaten from the Tree of Life......along with other fruitful trees........................he would not have died. This is the only reference I can actually think of that indicates eternal life based on obeidience in the O.T.
According to the literal translation (YLT), eating from the tree of life would have allowed Adam & Eve to "live to an age", not forever. Notice also that God tells Adam why he will return to dust (Gen 3:19); namely because he was made from dust. So it seems Adam was destined to return to dust from the moment he was created from dust. The only question was how long his human life would be, an age or a shorter time period.
JWs also use Rev. 21:4 "and death will be no more" indicating the end of death, but the K.I.T. shows the literal translation as "death will be not yet" which indicates a delay, not an elimination of death.
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Hi Gill,
So....We're all DOOMED....DOOOOMMED, I Say!
Is that what you mean, Thinker!?
The WT likes to say that all the faithful will live forever, the anointed in heaven and the great crowd on earth. What effect would it have if the great crowd knew that life on earth was long, but not never-ending?
thinker
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/aion_lim.html> .
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/time_12.html> .
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/time_13.html> .
The Watchtower promises the majority of JWs everlasting life on a paradise earth. This promise is based on the bible and their interpretation of it. All JWs I've talked with assume that "everlasting life" means living forever and the WT promotes this idea with phrases such as, "Millions ... will never die" and "live forever on a paradise earth" etc... But lets look at some other things which the bible says were (or will be) "everlasting". There's the Sabbath Law, the Aaronic priesthood, the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, and Jesus' 1000 year reign. All of these things which had (or will have) a beginning and an end are called "everlasting" in the bible. Clearly everlasting in the bible dosn't mean something will last forever.
I did some research to find out why this is so. Starting with Youngs Literal Translation we see that the word 'everlasting' is literally 'age-lasting' (or age-during). This means something that lasts for an age. The greek word which is translated in the NWT (and many others) as everlasting is aionios, it's hebrew equivalent is ohlam. Aionios is an adjective of the noun aion, an age. In the greek language an 'age' always refered to a period of time with a beginning and an end.
Here's some links to check out why aionios doesn't mean forever:
<http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html>
<http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/miscellaneous/allin.htm>
I also looked up aionios on the 1999 WT library CD. It is referenced a total of 5 times. Here's a few quotes:
" Both `oh·lam' (Heb.) and ai·on' (Gr.) relate basically to a period of time of indefinite length. (Ge 6:3; 17:13; Lu 1:70)"
w95 10/15
"El
Evangelio de Mateo notes: "Eternal life is definitive life; its opposite is definitive punishment. The Greek adjective aionios does not primarily denote duration, but quality. "w85 1/15
Although the Hebrew word ‘oh·lam is rendered by some as "forever," according to Hebrew authority William Gesenius, it means "hidden time, i. e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite."
These statements are true.
Here's an interesting question:
w80 7/1
"Questions from ReadersWhy does the November 15, 1979, issue of The Watchtower (pages 26, 27) speak of the "new covenant" being near the end of its operation, when Hebrews 13:20 speaks of this covenant as being "an everlasting covenant"?"This part of the answer is true:
"At Hebrews 13:20 the apostle Paul speaks of Jehovah resurrecting "the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant [Greek, di·a·the'ke ai·o'ni·os], our Lord Jesus." The Emphatic Diaglott translates this as "the Blood of an aionian Covenant" (interlinear: "age-lasting"). This same Greek expression was used by the translators of the Septuagint Version in translating the Hebrew words berith' `oh·lam' at Exodus 31:16, with reference to the Sabbath law (part of the Law covenant) that came to an end, although many translations speak of this also as an "everlasting covenant." (Ex. 31:17, LXX; Col. 2:13-16) Similarly, the covenant with Aaron and his sons for an "everlasting [Hebrew, `oh·lam'; Greek, ai·o·ni'a] priesthood" (American Standard Version) was only "to time indefinite" (New World Translation).-Ex. 40:15; Num. 25:13; Heb. 7:11, 12."But, the next line is just wishful thinking:
" The Hebrew word oh·lam' and the Greek equivalent ai·o'ni·os can mean forever in the sense that something never comes to an end or they can mean something that lasts into the indefinite future."So where did the WT get the idea that an age can be endless? As shown in the Insight Book, this is just their own silly assumption:
it pg 57
The Greek "Aion." "Age" may also refer to a period of time in man’s history, whether having or not having datable bounds. It is frequently used to translate the Greek word ai·on' (plural, ai·o'nes) in some translations. Greek lexicographers show the word to mean "space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age," and also "lifetime, life," or "age, generation." Since an epoch, or age, can begin and end or it can go on forever, it follows that ai·on' could refer to a period of time that is endless, though having a beginning.But this assumption is refuted by their own research:
In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the word ai·on' may denote a time period of indefinite or indeterminate length, a period of remote, but not endless, time.So how is it that JWs will enjoy everlasting life in paradise? This quote makes it clear that everlasting is just a relative phrase that doesn't really mean forever:
The benefits of that Kingdom by Christ will be "everlasting," though it actually will have been only "age-lasting," in one sense of the Greek word ai·o'ni·os used at 2 Peter 1:11. Relatively speaking, his reign of 1,000 years is eternal.Questions From ReadersWhat is the difference between immortality and everlasting life?Endless life will be enjoyed both by anointed ones receiving spirit life in heaven and by humans whom God declares righteous for life on the Paradise earth. So if you think about the outcome, immortality in heaven and everlasting life on earth result in basically the same thing-living forever.
Relatively speaking that is............
thinker
i met my jw wife about 5 years ago.
she da'd shortly after we met and like most people i thought it was terribly strange and wrong that her family shunned her.
for the first two years of our marriage my wife would call her parents on a fairly regular basis.
Hello All,
Well I was 'unshunned' again yesterday with a phone call. I tried to be polite, but firm; and I let her know that my wife and I feel this crisis (which started this contact) is over and we'd just like to move on with our lives. I hope she gets the message because I'm not very good at being rude, even to people who deserve it.
Please, please shun us again.
thinker
i need this advice before my spouse gets back from the meeting (1 hour tonight).. ok,.
here's the lowdown:.
if you've been following my story through various posts for about the last year you know that i've recently stepped aside as an elder and have been quietly fading.. i go to meetings sporadically.
Hi Listener,
If I were you, I'd tell her how meeting attendance makes you feel ie. never good enough for the Watchdogs. Tell her you don't what to subject yourself to all that. Hint that you have some doubts about the whole Org. set up.
From there I'd let her steer the conversation. If she askes what doubts, then pick ONE topic and start with that. Don't overwhelm her with everything at once.
Don't worry, it will all work out!
thinker
i met my jw wife about 5 years ago.
she da'd shortly after we met and like most people i thought it was terribly strange and wrong that her family shunned her.
for the first two years of our marriage my wife would call her parents on a fairly regular basis.
Hi Golden girl
Makes you wonder how they would be if they "Weren't" JW's? Would they still have the same personality? Would they still be judgemental? Maybe they picked a religion that fit their personality on purpose? Makes you wonder....... Snoozy..scratching her head...
They converted very early in life, so it's hard to say what they would have been like. I can tell you that my wife is just wonderful as was her non-JW sibling.
Hi Coolhandluke,
I think you may have hit the head of a nail that I had not previously seen. So true. I'd like my relationships that I had inside out here, free of the tyranny of the organization. I cannot handle the conversations that I have with these people now. They are always subject to judgement and attempts to bring me back into the fold.
That's exactly what happened with us. We had a fantasy version of how things would be if they talked to us; all the good things minus the religion. I think my wife has had her eyes opened to how her parents really are.
You all may be interested to know about the funeral. We were told it was going to be a "good witness". The sibling wasn't baptised and he left home at 17 and never had anything to do with religion again. The funeral was at a private residence since a KH was out of the question. The parents PO did the talk and about 2/3 of the attendees were friends of the parents (all JWs of course); the other 1/3 were long-time (15-20 yr) friends of the deceased. The elder talked like the deceased was just a recently inactive JW and made him out as some kind of unbaptised publisher proclaiming the "good news". Long time friends said afterwards how he never talked religion and they had no idea he was ever involved with JWs. Then there was the condensed version of WT doctrine which sounded really strange to all the non-JWs in attendance. All-in-all JWs came off as strange liars to all the 'worldlyings'.
In the aftermath, my in-laws have managed to 'convert' a number of the deceased worldly friends. They started out as completely indifferent to JWs, but now they almost hate them with a passion because of their behavior. I guess they were right, it really was a good witness!
thinker
i met my jw wife about 5 years ago.
she da'd shortly after we met and like most people i thought it was terribly strange and wrong that her family shunned her.
for the first two years of our marriage my wife would call her parents on a fairly regular basis.
I met my JW wife about 5 years ago. She DA'd shortly after we met and like most people I thought it was terribly strange and wrong that her family shunned her. For the first two years of our marriage my wife would call her parents on a fairly regular basis. Her parents would accept these calls in a polite, but cold manner. They seemed to have a whole set of rules for this limited contact. My wife could contact them, but they would never contact us. They could preach to us, but we couldn't express our own spiritual opinions. Topics discussed had to be non-religious, except when they felt like preaching. We could contact the parents, but not any other JW family members or friends.
After two years of this my wife simply stopped calling her parents. It seemed silly to keep following these rules and hoping that someday her parents might change. Our life went on and we were very happy despite the shunning and lack of contact.
As you know there are exceptions to the shunning rule. For example, you can unshun someone for business reasons. (I used to think it strange that someone would set aside strongly-held religious beliefs for business interests, but now I see that the WT is more of a business than a religion; so it makes perfect sense.) It seems JWs can also unshun someone for a family crisis (or at least my wife's parents believe this). About 5 months ago something very strange happened. My wife's parents called us! We knew this had to be an earth-shattering event and it was. We learned that my wife's worldly sibling had died unexpectedly. My mother-in-law let it be known that she was unshunning us for "the duration of the crisis". The last five months have been a flurry of unshuned events; with many personal meetings, funeral attendence, phone calls, estate questions, etc... For the first time in five years I really got a chance to know my JW in-laws. It didn't take long for me and my wife to decide that we really don't like them very much. Their behavior includes some very unchristian traits. They lie frequently, they're materialistic, manipulative, and downright dishonest in nearly every way. About a month into the 'crisis' I was longing to be shunned again, but it keeps getting drawn out as they seem to find one reason after another to keep in contact.
Now, I'm normally very patient and I tried to just wait it out; thinking they'd be shunning us again any day now. But after five months of this insanity my wife and I have decided to take matters into our own hands and have started actively shunning them.
The JWs I've met in the last few months seem to be products of the WT organization. They share many of the WT's character traits: materialism, deception and manipulation to control others. I used to think everything would be fine if they just stopped shunning us, but what my wife and I realize we really wanted was a "normal" family relationship; and that would require her family to change their ways and their thinking. If you're being shunned you may want to ask yourself if you really want to communicate with your JW family and friends as they are now. You may find that what you actually desire is a normal relationship; and that may not be possible while they remain JWs.
thinker
i've had this question is my mind for a while now, but has there been any skeletal remains discovered that could prove the existence of the nephilim?.
there's so many unanswered questions about these giants - first of all, were they really hybrids?.
secondly, if the demons could materialise and procreate, how do we not know that they gave their children the same reproductive powers?.
In the late 1950’s, during road construction in the Euphrates Valley of south-east Turkey, many tombs containing the remains of giants were uncovered. At the sites the leg bones were measured to be 120 cms (47.24 inches). Joe Taylor, Director of Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum, was commissioned to sculpt the human femur. This giant stood some 14-16 ft tall (right).
Genesis 6:4 claims: "There were giants in the earth in those days;" Deuteronomy 3:11 states that the bed of Og, king of Bashan, was 9 cubits by 4 cubits (approximately 14 ft long by 6 ft wide).
A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.
23-foot tall skeleton found in 1456 A.D. beside a river in Valence, France.
A 25' 6 " skeleton found in 1613 A.D. near the castle of Chaumont in France. This was claimed to be a nearly complete find.
A 9' 8" skeleton was excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana (Indianapolis News, Nov 10, 1975).
In 1833 soldiers digging at a pit for a powder magazine in Lompock Rancho, California, discovered a male skeleton 12 feet tall. The skeleton was surrounded by carved shells, stone axes, and blocks of porphyry covered with unintelligible symbols. The skeleton had double rows of upper and lower teeth. These bones substantiated legends by the local Piute Indians regarding giants which they called Si-Te-Cahs.
In Clearwater Minnesota, the skeletons of seven giants were found in mounds. These had receding foreheads and complete double dentition.
A mound near Toledo, Ohio, held 20 skeletons, seated and facing east with jaws and teeth "twice as large as those of present day people," and besides each was a large bowl with "curiously wrought hieroglyphic figures." (Chicago Record, Oct. 24, 1895; cited by Ron G. Dobbins, NEARA Journal, v13, fall 1978).
Almost beyond comprehension or believability was the find of the two separate 36-foot human remains uncovered by Carthaginians somewhere between 200-600 B.C.
Caius Julius Verus Maximinus, also known as Maximinus Thrax (235-238 A.D.) was a Roman soldier-emperor who spent his reign on campaign. Maximinus was born in Thrace to a Gothic father an an Alanic mother in about 173 A.D.. He was reportedly 8' feet, six inches (2.59m) tall, and of tremendous strength.
... fart?
if so, did it stink?
if so, did they still call the immediate area "paradise"?.
The Romans believed that the souls of the dead lived within the bean. Romans used beans as charms connected with the dead. They threw beans behind their backs for ghosts, hoping to insure the families’ redemption in the next world, and they also spit beans at ghosts as a charm against them. The connection of the bean to the realm of ghosts seems to be that it grows in a spiral and that its white flowers were symbolic of the purity of the bleached bones of death. Because breath is the evidence of life, the eating of the bean and the flatulence it causes were thought to be proof that the living souls of the dead were inside the lowly bean. The Latin word for soul and breath were the same: anima.
i've had this question is my mind for a while now, but has there been any skeletal remains discovered that could prove the existence of the nephilim?.
there's so many unanswered questions about these giants - first of all, were they really hybrids?.
secondly, if the demons could materialise and procreate, how do we not know that they gave their children the same reproductive powers?.
Interesting topic. I'm not sure why everyone thinks the nephilim were all destroyed in the flood. They are mentioned at Numbers 13:33. The WT dismisses this verse by saying that it was a false report. However, the WT seems to overlook the fact that this false report was meant to be believed, so it seems unlikely the spies would have included the nephilim reference if the nephilim were believed to be existinct. Doing that would have made the report an obvious falsehood.
The bible doesn't say when the angels started mating with humans. Some early interpretations say that it started with Eve. Genesis 4:1 has Eve saying at the birth of her first child, "I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.". This was interpreted as shorthand for "I have produced a man (read human) with the aid of an angel of Jehovah." The previous verse about Adam "knowing" Eve was interpreted to mean he knew about her unfaithfulness. This may be reflected in 1John 3:10-12 which speaks of "the children of the devil" and "Cain, who was of the Evil One". The Gospel of Philip spells it out by saying Cain was the child of Eve and Satan (verses 61:5-10). Also see Targum Pseudo-Jonathan and 4Macc. 18:7-8.
thinker
