Posts by thinker

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

It recently occured to me that there is two basic ways people look at the Bible: 1) everyone can read it and get the message (which is what I believe) and 2) "special" interpreters are needed to "decode" the "true" meaning of the literal word of God.
Now, imagine that Jesus is about to come down to earth. God calls Him into His office and says, "Jesus, my son, I have a very important mission for you. You will go to earth and spread my message to ALL of mankind. They must heed this message or else they'll suffer eternal damnation!"
Some would have you believe the conversation continued like this: "Make sure my message is really complicated so only a small handful of humans understand it. Make it ambiguous so the Bible causes mankind to start a multitude of religious factions that argue and kill over their own interpretations."
Personally, I believe it went like this: "Make it plain and simple. I want every man, woman, and child to clearly understand."
In addition, I believe it's entirely possible that God decided to send more than one "messenger" and write more than one book.

MDS,
I hope someday you can look back on this part of your life and have a really good laugh.

thinker

Time Travelers ?

by thinker in

jw
friends

if you think about it time is really just a way for humans to organize things.

memories are stored in the "computer" that sits between our ears and then labeled in an orderly fashion according to whatever calendar system we happen to be using.

it's not really real.

thinker

If you think about it Time is really just a way for humans to organize things. Memories are stored in the "computer" that sits between our ears and then labeled in an orderly fashion according to whatever calendar system we happen to be using. It's NOT REALLY REAL. As Einstein said It's relative. Yesterday, last week, last month, last year are notihng but MEMORIES (not real). Tomorrow, next week, next year are but dreams. The only thing that makes "NOW" real to us is the fact that we're stuck in the present. But is everyone stuck in this illusion of Time ?
Consider the following quotes:

Verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was I am. -Jesus
One moment holds an eternity. -Goeth
To see the world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour. -William Blake
And that that which sings and contemplates in you is still dwelling
within the bounds of that first moment which scattered the stars into space -Kahlil Gibran
Or say that the end precedes the beginning,
And the end and the beginning were always there
Before the beginning and after the end.
And all is always now. -T.S. Eliot

Is it possible that certain evolved "consciousness" can "see" the reality behind Time and be freed from time ?

17

'How to Cope With Negative Feelings' WT April 15

by ISP in

jw
friends

watchtower, april 15, 2001 page 23,. but i am constantly with you; you have taken hold of my right hand.

with your counsel you will lead me, and afterward you will take me even to glory.

(psalm 73:23-24) one christian who was abused as a child learned the wisdom of these words, keeping in close association with the congregation, she says, showed me a different side to life.

thinker

ISP,
When I read the quote you posted, two things came to mind:
1) The Society is very concerned about the bad press (in newspapers and in the planned Dateline show) it is receiving in regards to abuse.

2) The WT is also concerned about other victims of abuse coming forward and telling their stories, leaving the org. or both.

The story seems to have two purposes. Put some positive "spin" on the WTBTS concerning abuse and tell others in the congregations that their problems with abuse need to go no farther than the elders ("keeping in close association with the congregation") and should not be viewed as a reason for leaving the organization.

I expect to see alot more "spin" as the Dateline show approaches.

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

thinker

bjc,
First a definition. When I said "free will", I meant the complete freedom to choose. Choices in EVERYTHING, from what you want for dinner tonight to what you want to believe about the meaning of life.
It is these choices, large and small; which determine our futures, both individually and collectively.
For example, I am who I am because of the choices I've made during my adult life and the choices my parents made for me as a child. My parents created me because the choices they made brought about a child (me). Their parents created them with a series of choices, etc..back as far as you want to go. By your reasoning, ALL of these choices were predetermined by Jehovah to bring about a certain timeline.
Another example: One day last year on the way to work, I decided to go by a different route. By doing so I avoided a fatal accident on my regular route. The choice I made may have been the diffence between my being alive today or not. At the time the decision seemed small and insignificant, but in hindsight I wonder if my free will was being "overruled" so I could continue in this life. Did I choose on my own or did God play a part? If He made the decision for me then what happened to my free will?

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

thinker

Seven,
Thank you for the reply, however it still contains a contradiction.

Man determines the outcome of history(free will), Jehovah the eventual victory of good over evil

For example, I think everyone will agree that Hitler was a truly evil man. Your reply would indicate that Jehovah influenced the defeat of Hilter. This would require Jehovah's influence on all those who opposed Hitler (The U.K. abandoning the peaceful negotiations with Germany, America's decision to enter the war, Germany's decision to attack it's one-time ally Russia, etc.) Were all of the necessary choices predetermined by God? If so, what free will do we really have? If Jehovah determines the eventual outcome of good winning out over evil, how exactly does that happen? Is it not by removing the free choice of individuals? It is only WITHOUT mankind's free will that the future can be determined and predicted. A review of history shows that it is a possiblity that Hitler could have won the war (if certain choices had been made differently).
As for prophesy, the bible speaks of Amagedon. Is it possible for the free will of Man to make the necessary choices to avoid this battle? Is it possible that Evil will win out over Good? If it's predetermined that Good will triumph, then why bother with the battle at all? Simply cause Man's choices to be "good" (as you indicate Jehovah can do). But this could, in no way; be called "free will". Your reply seems to indicate that our free will consists only of our ability to choose sides (good or evil) in a predetermined future (the triumph of good over evil) where the infinite number of choices necessary by the players involved (all of mankind) are already known (and therefore are not really choices or free will at all).
Interesting to think about...

18

"Use of the Internet-Be Alert to the Dange...

by zev in

jw
friends

it never ceases to amaze me that in my 30+ years of sitting in those cheep plastic chairs, how much i missed, took for granted or just plain didn't care.

i took advantage of my time this morning to look over a couple aticles published by the borg, that relate to sites like this and countless others.

{this one being the best of course, imho} .

thinker

Thanks for the update Zev,
I can just imagine what was really said at the meeting where this article was formulated. In fact, I've added those secret comments in bold.
In fulfillment of his words, after the death of the apostles, a great apostasy led to the development of Christendom. Today, there is no great apostasy taking place among God's people (We're losing people like crazy!!!). Still, a few individuals have left our ranks, and some among them are bent on defaming Jehovah's Witnesses by spreading lies and misinformation (Like quoting from past watchtower literature). A few work with other groups in organized resistance to pure worship. In doing so, they side with the very first apostate, Satan.(We better bring out the "big gun". Note to writing staff: insert satan here)

9 Some apostates are increasingly using various forms of mass communication, including the Internet, to spread false information about Jehovah's Witnesses (ALL OF OUR SECRETS ARE OUT THERE FOR ANYONE TO READ !!!). As a result, when sincere individuals do research on our beliefs, they may stumble across apostate propaganda (We can't seem to convert ANYONE anymore. As soon as we leave a house, they look us up online and we're screwed). Even some Witnesses have unwittingly exposed themselves to this harmful material (Not only can't we convert, but the ones we have are leaving, too). In addition, apostates occasionally take part in television or radio programs (Watch for the upcoming "Dateline" show about perverts among us). What is the wise course to follow in view of this? (1Sm2:3 "Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of KNOWLEDGE, and by him actions are weighed." So follow the course of KNOWLEDGE.)

You can almost smell the fear...

Edited by - thinker on 4 March 2001 16:50:22

8

Been lurking too long

by CoolBreeze in

i must admit i've been lurking on this and other boards for about two years.

one of my favorites used to witnet until they closed their site.

i'm not a jw, but about three years ago i had a jw roomate and because i was going through some tough personal issues i agreed to a book study in our apartment.

thinker

Hi Coolbreeze,
Nice to meet a fellow "researcher". Glad to hear you used your head and avoided the trap.
I started my research when I met my wife (inactive JW) last year. The shunning thing really got me started.
Looking forward to your posts.
thinker

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

thinker

Thank you both for your comments. But, I believe you may have misunderstood my main point.
In a nutshell: Free will would, by definition; negate a predictable future.
A predetermined future (prophesy) would mean mankind's choices are already made for us.

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

thinker

I've heard many people tell me about Bible prophesy. If the Bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are PREDETERMINED and Man has no choices in this world. Think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently. Now multiply that by the total number of peolple on earth and you have some idea of the infinite number of possible "futures".
On the other hand, the Bible also says that we all have free will and choices. If we truly have free will, then our future is up to US; not predestined.
Any opinions on this contradiction would be appreciated.

27

The writing is on the wall the pale horse is here.

by spectromize in

jw
friends

when you look at the news headlines concerning the many out of control pestilences, i can't help but think of the scripture in revelation chapter 6 verse 8, what do you all think about this subject?

thinker

Spec,
History is full of "times of trouble". Do you know how many people in history have been called the anti-christ? I believe it's only human nature to think we're "special" and living in a "special" period of time.
thinker