Posts by prologos

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

GG I see now: "--17 times God says that he manipulated space and time to “stretch” out the heavens.--" I did not realize that Perry considered the expansion of space into time** a "manipulation" of creation. Of course, by nature, space has expanded, at times perhaps inflationary, from the singularity to its "present" size. That is why the first light is now the Cosmic Background radiation, redshifted to only a few degrees above 0 degrees Kelvin, a very cold, long wavelength, but still arriving at the 300 000 km/sec clip. If Perry really believes the ~ 14 billion were stretched out of the biblical 6000 years original creative days, he would have still some serious learning to do. Even the wt writers now ascribe the term "eons" to the time between creative milestones.

** I do not think time would have been stretched too, surely the duration of a second was not shorter in the past? or?

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

M_ B: :--because the time itself did not existed before/outside this Universe.

This idea has been asserted here many times, but some modern hypothesis require time to have existed in the pre- big bang conditions too, what is unique is our moving through time. The "beginning" question you raise, might just be one of scale.

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

C: "Welcome to the forum Giles Gray.

Excellent maiden post. I second that, and would like to hear more from you, to answer the points you raised about Perry's ideas on expansion, stretching, can you go back and quote, copy and past these instances so we can make the connections ? thank until soon!. P.

88

What was there before the Big Bang?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuhj98vjoa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hik8hj0_t9q.

prologos

Twitch: What really is time? If time is the dimension of duration, it is durable dur=tough, perhaps that why it always was, eternal, before the Big bang?

Twitch: what is an instant? in our movement through time, the now, at any instant is of zero length, that is why time is so precious, it comes in such small quantities for us. Our brains have so much inertia in their function, that time is sensed in us in increments, like brain waves. Could we one day measure a "Plank" duration, the smallest distance possible to move through time, the true instant? Such discovery would be relevant when we explore the cause of the big bang, surely. just putting these ideas out there.

88

What was there before the Big Bang?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuhj98vjoa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hik8hj0_t9q.

prologos

Twitch: "--Defining time in such a way is circular and logically inconsistent. perhaps not, because the two terms of the equation describe movement, one through the 3 space dimensions, and the other the duration, or movement through time, the 4st dimension. logically then, the faster you cover ground, the slower or less you move through time, at the speed of light, you stop moving through time. Time of course is key to causality, that of the Beginning Big Bang being the big question. very good post, and one of the few bible truism: Jesus in Acts 1:7: "-- It is not given to you to understand time--"

241

Another generation....

by joey jojo in

it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?

the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.

the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.

prologos

F: "--the ingathering continues, -- so in your view, is the 1935 generation destined to be declared overlapping too? (did not Rutherford in 1935 say at an assembly: " Behold the Great Multitude?") then and there? ?did you get the point though,

Wt predicts that the "anointed" generation will not see "all the things " before they pass away, gathered to heaven, before Armageddon. But that contradicts what Jesus, who said : The disciples, that generation really, will " NOT PASS AWAY" until the destruction is finished. Which was the case in the real fulfillment. The apostles walked.

The wt "anointed" generation is already a degenerate teaching before we even see how it fails in its simple final fulfillment.

241

Another generation....

by joey jojo in

it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?

the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.

the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.

prologos

Vh: "The generation Jesus was referring to was His own. We understand Vanderhoven, and that talk has it's own problems. we are discussing the wt's generation permutations.

The Jesus generation prophecy had the "anointed" ak Christians survive all these things, the destruction, "--flee to the mountains--" in the latest

Wt generation prediction, the "anointed" do not survive even the first stage, let alone the final destruction, they are rapture before it all ends. and that is only the predictions, We are discussing the reality, the happenings, and the generations no matter how you slice them are all going, they are not seeing "all these things that are destined to occur". that is why we demur.

241

Another generation....

by joey jojo in

it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?

the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.

the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.

prologos

Fisherman: "--the great crowd must not only mean surving because of conduct but also age. ---the two go hand in hand, with good genes, (mating habits of your ancestors) and clean living and diet, you can live to ~100, I know one member here , (alive, remembering the 1936 Olympics) who, with those lucky breaks would get him close to the next speculation milestone 1914+120=2034, but Rev 7 speaks of a Great crowd, not a few wheezers in wheelchairs, so:--great like the 1958 NY assembly perhaps? not! and:

to survive you have to be loyal, even if it seems not logical by human standards, maybe if you could survive, but if your testament does not leave your wealth to the wt, (and the angels can read that) are you living up to your vow? You may be a sheep (other or not), but if you are not ready to be shorn, you might not become part of the Great Crowd. am I ever glad that there never was a talking snake or donkey.

241

Another generation....

by joey jojo in

it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?

the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.

the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.

prologos

Was the 1935 " great multitude" event not a case of 'Vox populi, vox dei' ? believing that the 144 000 started with the 12 apostles, the 120 pentecostals, the exclusive "anointed " club had run out of places, too many partakers. so, dovetailing with the "millions will never die--" idea, They proposed this new earthly branch of sub-christianity, catering to the demand.

Unless wt will declare the 144 000 to be sealed only "in the Lord's day" since 1914, (they have done that to the F&DS after all, cancelling the 12 apostles & Paul), it is clear, that the church expected a new Heavens, but also a New Earth, a fleshly resurrection, and a sealing of rulers, priest out of the general populace during all that time. Wt took it to the extreme, making for a really very crowded Earth (despite paradise illustrations) and a very empty heavens, bigger than the Universe, but with 144 000 newcomers only. vox populi, vox dei. ?

241

Another generation....

by joey jojo in

it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?

the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.

the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.

prologos

I would say there are three classes in wt doctrines here, 1) The 144 000; --2) the Great after Armageddon Crowd, 3) all those that died before Armageddon, that are resurrected to Earth, aka OS.

In Jw's mind, those witnesses that die now were wrongly called members of the great Crowd, but were definitely Other Sheep.

Would not any member of a Christian church, not of the wt 144 00 , that died be an OS too? since until 1918, the members of all those churches were considered more or less "True Christians" under scrutiny ..,--- until they were rejected by Christ in favour of Rutherford Inc? and:

is here a name in wt parlance that is a catch all for general resurrection candidates?