Posts by DavePerez

51

Does an "all knowing" God have the leisure of choosing not to know something?

by wannabefree in

this concept just always caused a conflict in my mind.

i can remove the idea of predestination with knowing something in advance, why would the watch tower insist that god chooses not to know something?

is that even possible for god?

DavePerez

prologos said:

choices we make are limited by natural laws. Could the creator that made all this functioning immensity predict single event outcomes? surely.

Here, lemme assist you with translating that out of WT Style writing (ie asking a question, and then answering it with the answer that's provided for you), putting it in the form of a statement:

"The creator who made all this functioning immensity can predict single event outcomes."

Now, you get to prove it, starting with proving:

1) the existence of a creator, who can,

2) predict single event outcomes.

No rush: I'll wait right here until you prove that claim.

The WT is simply repeating a claim of the existence of an omniscient God, but dressing up in poetic fluffy-sounding language (puffery) intended to impart a sense of wonderment and majesty that impresses some readers.

Regards,

DP

51

Does an "all knowing" God have the leisure of choosing not to know something?

by wannabefree in

this concept just always caused a conflict in my mind.

i can remove the idea of predestination with knowing something in advance, why would the watch tower insist that god chooses not to know something?

is that even possible for god?

DavePerez

" God can foresee certain events, but in many cases, he has chosen not to use his fore knowledge. Because God is almighty, he is free to excercise his abilities, not according to the wishes of imperfect humans."_______w95 2/15 pp.5-6

So silly.....

Translated, the first sentence is a definition of semicience, followed by an appeal to Divine authority.

That concept begs the question: how does God do that?

Since God didn't have a beginning (he always was), and doesn't ever change (he has always BEEN the same, including always possessing omniscience), then he would not be able to know what future events he'd want to "forget" without knowing of them, in the first place. So, he would have to actively CHOOSE which events NOT to know, which is just the same as choosing to forget, AKA turning his head, looking the other way, etc. Psychologists would say that he suppressed his foreknowledge, just like some memories are suppressed after the fact. Problem is, suppression of foreknowledge requires AWARENESS of it beforehand. Logical impossibility, as you cannot know beforehand what you don't want to know, without actually knowing it.

But playing along with the WT logic:

It's a good thing God decided to remember enough to create the 'Divine Authority Challenge' Tree (which he also designed to grant humans wisdom), and remembered to place it in the center of the Garden where they couldn't miss it, remembered to create a talking snake to entrap Eve into eating it, remembered to create humans without wisdom (and remembered to give them a DESIRE for wisdom), but then chose to forget to put a flaming sword on the tree to protect it.

What an awful long way for God to go, just to play a game of "Mother, May I?" with an AK-47 pointed at Adam and Eve as the penalty if they tripped up.

(Maybe God got tired of playing the game with cattle, since they basically sucked at it, and it got boring, as no challenge?)

BTW, anyone who's heard of the myth of Prometheus, the half-God who stole fire (which symbolised 'knowledge; in Greek culture) from Zeus to give it to humans below, has already heard this story: 'YHWH' is playing the title role of Zeus, 'the serpent' co-stars as Prometheus, and 'Adam and Eve' are appearing as 'the mortals'. Same story, just an adaptation for a Hebrew audience.

59

Elders finally took me to the back room...

by OneDayillBeFree in

after several months of leaving the meetings as soon as they ended or only staying for "the first meeting" then leaving the "second part", the elders finally cornered me at last night's meeting.. they said they were concerned about me and that being that i am a young brother in a recently divided congregation they saw so much potential in me to help out the congregation and become a ms.. i told them i was thankful for their thinking of me to help the congregation but that at the moment i could not due to my job.

then the began asking personal questions that got on my nerves.. they asked where i worked and how much i made.

they asked if i was going to college and what i was studying and for how long.

DavePerez

Lol! That iPhone app saved your bacon! I have it, too... (Fake Caller, I think?).

The "offer" they made you wasn't really anything besides an offer you cannot refuse, just like the ones the Mafia would make to their victims (thug picks up framed family portrait off the desk and says, "Gee, that's a nice lookin' family you got there... It would be a real shame if anything unfortunate were to happen to them....")

They asked how much you made? You told them you're in college?

As you were asked above, remind us of your particular situation (eg baptized, living at home, family members who'd shun, etc).

Unless there's extenuating circumstances, you have a clever iPhone app (and had the presence of mind to use it! That's the BEST use of it I've heard!), you're in college, have a job, and you've had doubts for a long time (registered in 2011): you're smart enough to know what you've gotta do, and time is passing and you ain't getting any younger. :)

38

This is just plain CRAZY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by wasblind in

jw
friends

" jehovah's witnesses were not in the concentration camps because they were criminals.. .

when officers wanted someone to shave them, they trusted a witness with the razor, because they knew that no witness would ever use such an instrument as a weapon to harm another human.. .

when ss officers at the auschwits extermination camp needed someone to clean their homes or care for their children, they selected witnesses, because they knew these would not try to escape.. .

DavePerez

Well that explains it, then, with two sections of the camp.

Because the idea of the captives destined for extermination inside being allowed gift baskets (parcels from home, esp during wartime famine) doesn't exactly jibe with the documentaries I've seen showing footage of victims being given cavity searches by Nazi guards to find hidden valuables, or even being disemboweled to retrieve swallowed items, the piles of eyeglasses, shoes, the mountains of pulled teeth containing gold fillings, or even lampshades made of the skin of the victims. ANYTHING of value that could be taken was. Horrific stuff.....

So it sounds like even though the plight of the Bible Students was bad by virtue of being on the grounds, it sounds more like forced household servant labor and admin work, etc, thus living on a much higher level that those destined for extermination. After all, Bible Students were only wanna-be Jews, and more likely fellow Aryans, and not the real deal.

But as stated, that would not be a picnic: there was a documentary about the Jews who survived by playing in the prison band that greeted those Jews destined for their deaths. Talk about a soul-crushing experience, having to play happy music to allay their fears and make group easier for the guards to control, fully knowing their fate (not to mention the inevitable survivor's guilt). But as Terry points out, it's pretty duplicitous for current-day JWs to take the credit for it (AKA historical revisionism), but who is to stand up and say otherwise?

38

This is just plain CRAZY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by wasblind in

jw
friends

" jehovah's witnesses were not in the concentration camps because they were criminals.. .

when officers wanted someone to shave them, they trusted a witness with the razor, because they knew that no witness would ever use such an instrument as a weapon to harm another human.. .

when ss officers at the auschwits extermination camp needed someone to clean their homes or care for their children, they selected witnesses, because they knew these would not try to escape.. .

DavePerez

Lol, cult classic!

Seems the author got greedy and had to go big, not content to rely on the typical plot device of prisoners smuggling contraband in via the laundry, or even the infamous "prison wallet" (and if any of you don't know what that is, trust me: you do NOT want to! It would suffice to say that it would make reading the pub a smellier experience than it already is, and would probably cause some ink to run on the paper).

38

This is just plain CRAZY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by wasblind in

jw
friends

" jehovah's witnesses were not in the concentration camps because they were criminals.. .

when officers wanted someone to shave them, they trusted a witness with the razor, because they knew that no witness would ever use such an instrument as a weapon to harm another human.. .

when ss officers at the auschwits extermination camp needed someone to clean their homes or care for their children, they selected witnesses, because they knew these would not try to escape.. .

DavePerez

Just goes to show the treachery of JWs, duping the poor Nazi guards, lulling them into a false sense of security and allowing them to place their trust in them (by not tying to escape, not stealing, etc), only to betray that trust by sneaking publications ino the camps!

PS you learn something new every day: I did not know people on the outside COULD send gift baskets to those in Nazi concentration camps! Huh! It kinda makes sense, as a nice basket of fruit and flowers (with a WT hidden in there) could really brighten their day! :)

The Proclaimers book seems to think of it as if it were a hospital or convalescent home, not a concentration camp.

34

Gun Control, Alex Jones and Piers Morgan

by Amelia Ashton in

jw
friends

piers morgan decided to advocate gun control after sandy hook.

that caused this radio host, alex jones, who has millions of listeners to create a petition to have piers deported.

piers invited alex on his show to have a civil debate about guns.

DavePerez

Here's part II of that interview (the OP linked to part I):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf-i3Y5iRYo

So, it seems Alex thought he did pretty good!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2013/01/08/alex-jones-spins-piers-morgan-appearance-i-dont-respect-that-show/?view=pc

However, some gun-toting lunatic conspiracy theorists disagree, and now suspect Alex Jones is actually a 'false flag', a CIA operative who went on Piers Morgan's show just to make gun-toting lunatic conspiracy theorists look bad.

If you missed part II of the video, here's the complete transcript:

AJ: (unintelligible incoherent rant)

PM: Alex....

AJ: (unintelligible incoherent rant)

PM: Alex....

AJ: (unintelligible incoherent rant)

PM: Alex....

AJ: And if you'd like to hear more, go to Infowars.com!

5

Violence Canadian Style: Astonishing Assault Weapons of the North

by kurtbethel in

jw
friends

case not being taken seriously says montreal man after tomato sandwich attackhttp://www.globalmontreal.com/case+not+being+taken+seriously+says+montreal+man+after+tomato+sandwich+attack/6442785309/story.html.

will there be a ban on tomatoes?.

canadian assault weapon.

DavePerez

Tomatoes don't kill peop.... Ahhh, never mind (too easy).

44

California TV Personality Huell Howser Dead at Age 67

by kurtbethel in

jw
friends

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/huell-howser-death-california-gold-185922911.html.

.

DavePerez

Thanks Mrs J!

Just want to highlight this part:

Huell devoted the last two years of his life to assuring that people all over the world – particularly students, teachers and children – would always be able to access his life’s work, by generously donating it to Chapman University. All 900-plus episodes of “California’s Gold” are now available online, for free public viewing, at www.HuellHowserArchive.comthrough the dedicated work of our own Panther Productions. Huell was very gratified to see that happen.

"Free viewing of all 900 (!) episodes!"

Sweet, as I was looking around on-line a few months ago for a particular episode abailable for on-line viewing, and couldn't find ANYTHING (it was all available by buying a DVD, which just isn't going to happen). So that announcement above is pretty huge. Seems like a great way to get a taste of his work, if some of you aren't familiar with him, and I'm going to watch an old episode I was thinking about to relive the memory of a great man doing what he clearly loved doing.

184

A picture so outrageous, it deserves its own thread...

by cedars in

i mean no disrespect to sd-7 or his fine thread on which this picture has already featured, but i think it is just so ridiculous that it deserves a thread all of its own.. lurkers and apologists, this is how your precious organization views itself.... behold the madness.... .

.

cedars.

DavePerez

Rebel 8 said:

Also, what brand of sunglasses is the big angel on the right wearing, I wonder? They're odd. Or maybe he has giant holes in his head instead of eyes.

Good find, Rebel 8; I didn't notice that.... Aside from the golden belt he's wearing (and the angel behind him seemingly isn't wearing one, so some heavenly designation of his rank?), those tiny sunglasses would seemingly point to Jesus, as his future's so bright, he's gotta wear shades?