a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Hi Earnest,
SaintBertholdt, thank you for the transcription. Do you have a link you could share to the video interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum?
Unfortunately no. I have the documentary 'knocking' and I transcribed it from that.
I am not sure whether its been posted online anywhere.
a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Hi rip van winkle,
JF Rutherford could've had JWs use "Theocratic Warfare" to avoid the Nazi camps--
True. Lying was already defined by Rutherford in 1936 as :'A lie is a false statement made by one to another one who is entitled to hear and to know the truth'. So if you were not entitled to the truth e.g. the Nazi state, it was not a lie to be untruthful. Also by 1940 there was correspondence to the Watchtower HQ referring to the 'Rahab technique'.
Rutherford wanted martyrs it would seem. Also after his incarceration in 1918 he became disillusioned with all governments (including the US) and that's why he actually preferred a hard line to placation.
a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Sadly, however, even Pope Francis cannot change doctrine or produce new ones, so I don't see changes on birth control or other matters coming soon, not unless he can find a loophole that proves an underlying doctrine of the Church is being compromised by current beliefs.
There is one loophole I'm aware of: Its called special dispensation.
The church has invoked it for divorce which used to be a mortal sin. So although you can't get divorced in the catholic church, you actually can. You pay a fine and a Diocesan Tribunal counsel nullifies your marriage and you're good to go.
So I wonder if Francis could not use the same type of idea: Allow the special dispensation to avoid 'hardship' on the marriage union by avoiding unwanted pregnancy by using contraception. One would have to write a letter to the local priest requesting the special dispensation, after all it has to seem 'special'.
a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Hi again CalebinFloroda
Not that I think the JWs are incapable of such change.In fact it is because I know that they are that I do not share as positive a view of the Watchtower as some might.
I think the chances of the Watchtower ever reverting to a pre-1932 doctrine regarding the Jews is pretty slim. The reason is mainly because it goes against the 'new nation' doctrine of Rutherford when he introduced the Jehovah's Witness name change. The idea being that the new nation replaced the Jewish nation as most favored by God. A revert would cause major theological problems and revisions within the JW dogma, something for which the current Governing Body is ill-equipped.
As you probably are aware Russell used to hold talks specifically for Jews called consolation meetings where he espoused the idea of the reconciliation of the Jews with God and their restitution by the re-establishment of the Jews in Palestine. Up until 1931 Rutherford upheld that doctrine and there was even a Watchtower article in that year that re-affirmed the doctrine. One year later and there's a total 180 degree turnaround. It must have confused Jews who had heard about the Bible students stance and I suspect even caused the Nazis some confusion.
I was instead offering a counter argument that could validate why some individuals might not agree with Rabbi Berenbaum. It is Jewish custom to open every view to critical analysis, and that is what I was doing.
I have no problem with that at all :)
With Vatican II the Catholic Church denounced proselytizing of Jews, Replacement Theology (Supersessionism), and teaches that the covenant relationship of the Jews with G-d are not only still valid but irrevocable.
I do not understand how the Catholic Church can be so progressive in some aspects of their theology but still cling to backward ideas such as the banning of Birth Control. Perhaps pope Francis has a trick up his sleeve.
this is the first year i have not been at a summer assembly.. the friends here locally just got back from the regional in our area.. they mostly took their vacation time from work to attend.. while they were gone i had an epiphany...... why is it that the rank and file take their summer vacation time to attend an assembly (we have all heard this hammered in from the platform) whereas the governing body attend as part of their "work".. it cant be as simple as "well, they are giving talks" because there are many brothers that give talks from the rank and file also who have used up precious vacation hours and drug their entire family there plus give their parts.. or what about other brothers and sisters who volunteer and clean at the assembly.
on vacation.. so the pubs.
travel at their own expense, pay for their own rooms and food, and give parts and it is supposed to be viewed as their vacation.. the gb and c.o.s travel to the same assembly and stay in provided for accomadations, give a talk or two and they are "working".. what is that about?.
Hi oppostate,
"but it's still not as easy as what the hierarchs experience, not spending a dime and getting all their needs looked after, spending the convention in cushy administration rooms and best comfy hotels in the evening. What a racket!"
One could argue that the Watchtower hierarchy has cultivated their own "leisure class" lifestyle over the decades, and its a lifestyle which ordinary witnesses have come to implicitly expect the leadership to have.
a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Hi CalebInFloroda,
As a footnote: I have a rather heretical Jewish idea which I put to you: Could it not be argued that the Jewish messiah has in fact come? As you probably are aware there are Jewish schools of thought that think that the Jewish messiah is a class of people and not an individual. Could the argument not be made that the Jewish generation of the second world war in Europe was in fact the Messiah class? After all in the post war era the recognition of the attempted extermination of the Jews directly led to the nation state of Israel in 1948. Also the INDUSTRIAL process of extermination of the Jews by the Nazis will forever stand as a warning for the entirety of humanity to never repeat such an atrocity again.
a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Hi CalebInFloroda,
You wrote: Finally the Witnesses currently teach anti-Semitic doctrines, and many of these have remained in effect since before the 1930s. They advance a supersessionist ideology, demanding that Jewish converts assimilate to Western culture, and as they have told me directly believe that G-d has rejected the Jews as a people because they rejected and killed Jesus.
I think that because Berenbaum has studied Jehovah's Witness history he is aware of the change in doctrine in 1932. He knows that previously the organization taught that the Jews would be reconciled with God and that they did not have to convert to Christianity. He argues that the old doctrine was theologically consistent and perhaps hints for a return to that doctrine. From the transcript:
"If you for example say that the Jew can live with integrity with his God and that God spoke to the Jews; and if you then said that God furthermore spoke on to Christians with a new covenant, a new Testament, a new view, then you could be theologically consistent, which says to the people to whom the first word of God was spoken: It endures and continues and they should take it forward; To the people in whom the word of God came for the second time they can live with that word but they need not say that Judaism itself has no more function to perform."
a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Hi prologos,
I have this idea that if Jehovah's Witnesses were subjected to the same treatment as during the Nazi era, they would not be as resilient as the witnesses then. The reason is because the reliance on the individuals conscience was allowed more during the 1930's-40's than is allowed today. They had a sense they were taking a stand themselves by their own volition where today the laws of the organization prescribe the smallest minutia, resulting in robotic followers. When confronted with real horror and the difficult choices of survival, today's witnesses would only then start to deeply think about their religion and its implications.
Also in Germany only about 7000 witnesses entered into the camp system. These were the actively preaching witnesses who were arrested. About 15000 witnesses became inactive between 1933 and 1935 due to the Nazi ban and were therefore essentially left alone. So you ended up with the most devout witnesses in the camp system, hence their steadfast stand. If it were to happen today I would expect that about 5 million of the current 8 million followers would sign a compromising document (using the German statistic as a guide).
a while ago i transcribed a video interview with rabbi michael berenbaum from the university of judaism.
the interview concerns jehovah's witnesses during the second world war in the german concentration camp system.
berenbaum is a historian and specifically researches jehovah's witnesses during the shoah and also the idea of martyrdom.
Hi there Clambake,
I would disagree with your statement:
"I think the average JW needs to realize that JW didn’t go to the death camps, they went to work camps and the vast majority of them survived the ordeal."
Sachsenhausen was a "work" camp but was exceptionally brutal. Here's an excerpt from the book The Theory and Practice of Hell: The German Concentration Camps and the System Behind Them by Eugen Kogon
"The executions of conscientious objectors in Sachsenhausen continued at various times. On several different occasions the refusal of the Jehovah's Witnesses group to agree to military service resulted in ten men from their ranks being shot. The Gestapo finally stopped this ritual after forty witnesses in total had been executed."
Your statement: I think the real heros are the ones who stopped the Nazis, not the ones who babysat the SS childrens. is also echoed by Berenbaum where he says: "I think that their pacifism was wrong because the Nazis were unworthy of pacifism; they could only be defeated by force and if there were only pacifism then the Nazis would still be in power."
please give reasons for all the lurkers.
and why does shunning show the same attitude as the pharisees?
Hi there poopie,
I don't know about a pharisaic attitude, but I will say that no organization has the right to order the breaking of ties with one's biological family. "Kin affinity" is a biological mechanism for survival and to tamper with that can reasonably be termed unnatural.
...
Some religious organizations that actively promote shunning are Jehovah's Witnesses (with disfellowshipping), Scientology (with disconnect) and the Bahai faith and in history organizations such as Jim Jones' peoples temple (who committed mass suicide). Secular movements that have those ideas like Stephen Moleneux' Anarcho capitalist movement also promote the cutting off of family ties if they disagree with the movements point of view. It all smacks of cultist thinking by removing the closest people to the cult follower who have the potential to help them the most. It thereby cultivates dependence on the cult 'family' instead of on biological family.
...
From a Biblical point of view there is not a single instance where Jesus (the perfect Christian model) ever rejected speaking to a religious opponent (Pharisee or Sadducee) or even adulterers (who believed in the religious system but were still sinful). In the Christian Pauline era the criteria for non-association was the rejection of the Christ by people who used to be Christians. Today most ex-witnesses still retain a belief in Jesus after they leave the Witness organization, so I would argue that the organization is theologically in error.
Footnote: In a hypothetically totally consistent witness theology I guess I would still be one of those that would be cut off as I am now an atheist.
