after all the silly anecdotal tales, less-than-clever retorts, finally got my masters in jwd.. when witnet sunk into the sea, i went into a mild funk.
i missed the "sensitive issues" forum.. looking for alternatives, i found jw-pagans.
too big a jump for me!.
After all the silly anecdotal tales, less-than-clever retorts, finally got my Masters in JWD.
When Witnet sunk into the sea, I went into a mild funk. I missed the "Sensitive Issues" forum.
Looking for alternatives, I found JW-Pagans. Too big a jump for me!
Then WOL. Seemed like recess in grade school.
Finally, JWD. Everyone was talking about saddle blocks. Oh well, I'll sign up, anyway.
TMS, M.A.J.W.D.
i already said farewell in my apology post to julie.
but many of you may not have read it since it was specific to her.. i was planning a long farewell statement because i have a number of things i want to share, but decided i would do that in private if anyone wishes.
you can reach me at [email protected].. i chose to leave for a number of reasons, and some stated on my last post.
TJ:"not one of them EVER had a twinge of "hey... something's not right here"?
a twinge, maybe. . . . my wife and I caught one of the elders in front of his home and gently, almost surreally asked a few questions. Although the emotion was seething below the surface, we showed great restraint and spoke in low tones. He was totally tongue-tied. He later told a colleague that we were "too powerful" in tandem and should never be dealt with without backup.
My wife approached another committee member, a man with 40+ years JW experience, former Congregation Servant, etc. She had one question for him: "Do you think our son is wicked?" He refused to answer. He sold his home about a month later and moved to Arizona.
So, TJ, my gut feeling is that, yes, they possibly did feel a twinge of guilt, but, like their mother found it hard to express.
I know, TJ, that I have taken this thread off on a personal tangent, but in an honest answer to your question, if this sequence of events had never occurred, its likely that my wife and I would be driving home from the Congregation Book Study right now.
TMS
i already said farewell in my apology post to julie.
but many of you may not have read it since it was specific to her.. i was planning a long farewell statement because i have a number of things i want to share, but decided i would do that in private if anyone wishes.
you can reach me at [email protected].. i chose to leave for a number of reasons, and some stated on my last post.
TJ, you asked:
"What finally caused the dissonance that made you want to question, investigate, and finally leave?"
'93, my son's second reinstatement hearing. My wife was praying in the bedroom. I was pacing the living room floor, beseeching Jehovah, my God. I knew it would be inappropriate to pray for reinstatement, but in view of "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that, no matter what it is that we ask according to his will, he hears us", I felt that I could ask that the elders deal kindly with our son and, at the very least, show him their genuine concern in him as a person.
My son called. The elders had met with him for about 3 minutes, after he had waited about 45 minutes in his car after the meeting. They simply told him, without any interchange, that not enough time had gone by. He had been out a little over a year, at that point.
In that instant, TJ, something went out of me.
For the next year or two, I dreaded my wife's persistant question for which I had no answer: "Where is Jehovah in all of this?"
TMS
my path needs to be revamped.. i do plan to have a serious discussion with elders and attend the kingdom hall.
where that will lead, time will tell.. i am not leaving mitch.
even if i did become a jehovah's witness and celibate again he would love me just the same and i him.. you cannot become ungay.
Thank you, Joel.
I won't be worried about you.
I, too, have a long heritage as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Its with me every second of the day.
When I smile at a passerby, I know that was my "Kingdom smile".
My patience in line at the WalMart return desk is part of my theocratic training.
In private conversations, I am able to show "personal interest" and if necessary, "illustrations that fit my audience".
It would take radical brain surgery to undue all these neuroconnectors that reflect my heritage.
Its too late for that.
TMS
i already said farewell in my apology post to julie.
but many of you may not have read it since it was specific to her.. i was planning a long farewell statement because i have a number of things i want to share, but decided i would do that in private if anyone wishes.
you can reach me at [email protected].. i chose to leave for a number of reasons, and some stated on my last post.
This is probably an inappropriate place to interject my simplistic response, but . . . . .
I have known hundreds of congregation elders.
I can count on one hand those who expressed the slightest disillusionment with the WTBS or awareness that something didn't add up.
Elders have been spoonfed just like the r&f.
If we accept the truism that "knowledge brings responsibility", JW elders are no more responsible than the r&f.
One could argue though as James did that "teachers carry a heavier burden." But when one just recites verbatum what they have read in "Kingdom Service Questions", the "Lamp" or "Organization" book or picked up at the recent Kingdom Ministry School, are they really a teacher or merely a parrot?
TMS
here is another unequivocal example of a claim of direct inspiration: in the olin moyle court case of 1943, fred franz said under oath that no man is the editor of the watchtower.
who, then, is the editor?
who became the editor?
Actually, I don't fully understand the charge of spiritual cowardice. Theological cowardice, perhaps.
Anyway, "You Know" dispelled that notion with his responses, such as they were. The substance of the discussion was obscured by the personal nature of the challenge.
Even the thread title was double entendre. Was it "You Know, a Spiritual Coward"? or as it stands "You Know a Spiritual Coward". The correctness of that last inclusion would depend, first of all, on if one knew "You Know", secondly if he was proved a coward or would imply that each of us knew a spiritual coward, not necessarily, "You Know".
TMS
there are a lot of interesting obstacles facing the watchtower.. potential lawsuits, legal challenges to the door to door work,.
declining revenues, general loss of zeal, exposure on the internet,.
and loss of publishers in western nations come to mind.. yet, there is no obstacle greater, in my opinion, than the.
proplog2: "Disfellowshipping has become a right of passage."
Yes, proplog2, a rite of passage it was. We grew closer, stronger. As the anger dissipated, all of us found creativity that had been latent.
Although my wife and I are fully aware that several decades went down the tubes, our son thinks it all worked out for the best.
Had we acquiesced to the "theocratic" mindset, our family would have been destroyed. We would have been dead people walking.
TMS
there are a lot of interesting obstacles facing the watchtower.. potential lawsuits, legal challenges to the door to door work,.
declining revenues, general loss of zeal, exposure on the internet,.
and loss of publishers in western nations come to mind.. yet, there is no obstacle greater, in my opinion, than the.
Probably some of you older elders remember when the circuit overseer report used to critique the individual servants.
Next to my name were usually words like "mature, thinks things through, uses good judgement, etc."
In 1993 when my then 22 yr old son was disfellowshipped, I made a quick, but reasoned decision to allow him to remain in our home. There were Watchtower references I could have called upon to back up my actions(destitute, sick, endangered, etc.), but I did not. What I knew I had before me was not, by any measurement, a wicked person. The subsequent nine years have reinforced that assessment incontrovertably. Not for a single millisecond have I regretted my decision.
But my action destroyed a four decade theocratic standing and the associated privileges and aspirations.
Its dilemmas like this that so frequently threaten JW families.
TMS
here is another unequivocal example of a claim of direct inspiration: in the olin moyle court case of 1943, fred franz said under oath that no man is the editor of the watchtower.
who, then, is the editor?
who became the editor?
My take on the foregoing:
You Know comes off as more cunning than cowardly. His direct relationship with Jah stance is thinking way outside the spiritual paradise box, however. Certainly, he is not accusing the "faithful and discreet slave" of skullduggery, so his implication is that the slave operates independent of Watchtower control.
DannyBear's enforcement argument makes great sense. Disagreeing with an opinion does not constitute one "wicked", but opposing God's word does. Just suppose Albert Schroeder, Karl Klein and Grant Suiter had been successful in persuading the other GB members to accept the rationale that the "last days" had begun in 1957, instead of 1914. That "adjustment" would have been viewed as coming from Jehovah. Anyone vocal in their discomfort with the new light would be tieing themselves on the tracks in front of the disfellowshipping train.
But Alan has already fully documented the WTBS assertion of being divinely lead.
So You Know, while not cowardly, in my view, you've certainly backed yourself into a theocratic corner.
TMS
i want to report the most significant thing that ever happened to.
it is an event that i haven't been able to integrate into my.
life.
It seems no more rational to assume that such an experience is not otherworldly, than to assume that it is.
TMS
