Posts by TMS

71

What Movie Could You Watch Over and Over Again?

by Abandoned in

for me, there are a number of movies that i never tire of.

here's a partial list:.

elfthe holidaytommy boyplanes trains and automobilesdumb and dumber28 dayswhat are yours?.

TMS

Ordinary People. . . . . . . In The Heat Of The Night

39

My Personal Proof That Elders Are Not Appointed by Holy Spirit

by TMS in

this topic is not about men living sinfully at the time of their appointment as elders.

it is not about pedophile elders, although i've personally known three, two who were pedophiles at the time of their appointment by the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.. first of all a quick summary of what jehovah's witnesses are taught about the appointment of elders and ministerial servants:.

before the visit of the circuit overseer, the local elders meet to consider who, if any, among the local congregation they will recommend as elders or .

TMS

I believe that there is a lot of proof that appointments are not by Holy Spirit. It is only about the almighty "TIME IN FIELD SERVICE." It is currency by which appointments are made. It doesn't matter if you are a total doorknob or jerk, you will still be appointed as long as you suck up to the right people and have the right numbers.

JK666,

That is so well put, "the currency by which appointments are made". Traveling overseers are simply numbers men. A 10.1 beats an 8.6 every time. So many good men waste their lives chasing that retractable dangling carrot of "service privileges". So many wannabe elderesses drag their hubbies out into field service because of their ambitions, write their talks out, study with the kids. But that's another thread. LOL!

tms

39

My Personal Proof That Elders Are Not Appointed by Holy Spirit

by TMS in

this topic is not about men living sinfully at the time of their appointment as elders.

it is not about pedophile elders, although i've personally known three, two who were pedophiles at the time of their appointment by the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.. first of all a quick summary of what jehovah's witnesses are taught about the appointment of elders and ministerial servants:.

before the visit of the circuit overseer, the local elders meet to consider who, if any, among the local congregation they will recommend as elders or .

TMS

I realize that this is a dry topic, difficult to read. I simply wanted to document this incident and the way it was handled.

tms

39

My Personal Proof That Elders Are Not Appointed by Holy Spirit

by TMS in

this topic is not about men living sinfully at the time of their appointment as elders.

it is not about pedophile elders, although i've personally known three, two who were pedophiles at the time of their appointment by the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.. first of all a quick summary of what jehovah's witnesses are taught about the appointment of elders and ministerial servants:.

before the visit of the circuit overseer, the local elders meet to consider who, if any, among the local congregation they will recommend as elders or .

TMS

This topic is not about men living sinfully at the time of their appointment as elders. It is not about pedophile elders, although I've personally known three, two who were pedophiles at the time of their appointment by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

First of all a quick summary of what Jehovah's Witnesses are taught about the appointment of elders and ministerial servants:

Before the visit of the circuit overseer, the local elders meet to consider who, if any, among the local congregation they will recommend as elders or
ministerial servants. The meeting starts with a prayer asking for God's holy spirit to guide their deliberations. The scriptures dealing with the qualifications for these offices are read, usually 1 Peter 5:1-5, Titus 2:1-10 and 1 Timothy 3:1-13. These scriptual qualifications are said to be
the product of holy spirit, inspired by God like the rest of the Bible. At the meeting with the elders during the circuit overseer's visit, the local elders' recommendations are reviewed after a prayer asking for holy spirit. The finalized, agreed-upon recommendations are sent to the Society to be reviewed by the Governing Body (after prayer). Although, we later learned that a committee from the Service Department may have made the actual appointments, whatever was done was under the direction of the Gov-
erning Body. In due time, the appointments are received by the congregation body of elders. Before reading the appointment letter each prospective
appointee is asked privately if there is any reason why they cannot serve.
If not, there appointment is read at the congregation's service meeting.

Through the above process or something similar, elders(and ministerial servants)
are said to be appointed by holy spirit.

Now to my example.

In 1976 I was an elder in the very large Little Rock East Congregation. I was the Theocratic School Overseer and, by default the Congregation Secretary(no one else wanted that job). We had nine elders and recommended two more: George F. and Earl R. Both men seemed well qualified.
George, in his 30's was a married pioneer, articulate, reasonable, approachable. Earl was only 26, but mature beyond his years. He produced programs for Arkansas Public Television and had a small family.

The Society's appointment letter came back with a green check by Earl's name and
a brief explanation for non-appointment next to George's name. In the explanation the Society(I still use that term) stated that George was still somewhat young and had been baptised only a short time. In actuality, George was 7 or 8 years OLDER than Earl and baptised longer. It was an obvious error.

Now, what to do? The body of elders was not inclined to do anything, just leave the appointments as they were in spite of the obvious error. I learned that they were afraid the letter was sent back, Earl's appointment would be undone. He was the local man and like the majority, black. George, although liked, was a move-in and white.

This obvious injustice was upsetting to me. I did not approach the body of elders. I already sensed their inclination. As secretary, I approached the other two service committee members. They acquiesced to a letter being sent if I would write it. I drafted the letter and presented it to the body as simply an inquiry. No huge objections were voiced and the letter was sent.

Basically, the letter to the Society stated:

You appointed Earl R. You did not appoint George F., stating that he was somewhat young and had been baptised a relatively short time. May we point
out that Brother Earl R. is younger than Brother George F. has been baptised
a shorter period. Did you intend to appoint Brother F. and not Brother R.?
How should we proceed?

I was interested in how the Society would respond. Would they simply admit an error? What explanation would be given? As a true believer, I was interested in
their response.

In a few weeks a new appointment letter was received. There was absolutely no explanation. There simply a green check beside George F.'s name. Both men were appointed.

This whole episode rattled my theocratic cage, but not enough to more closely
scrutinize my religion.

As I look back, this was simply one of many signs I ignored that I was involved in a very
human operation. No holy spirit directed anything.

tms

85

Elder asks me why we quit... (Long)

by Odrade in

in this thread i mentioned having a long chat with an elder last summer.

i didn't realize i had never posted the story, so here it is.. last summer (when i went to buy my new camera lens) i ran into one of my favorite jws at the photography shop.

he was buying a camera bag for his new dslr, and i saw him, went up and greeted him, hugged him.

TMS

odrade,

Well-reasoned responses, odrade. . . . . Personal integrity as a reason for departure is not what JW's want to hear. Being stumbled, a secret sin, discouragement or depression are sicknesses that can be treated with a myriad of JW cliche's. To say that the religion is a lie puts you on death row without possibility of parole. You would have to admit that you are the liar, not Jehovah's name people to ever be accepted back.

The elder gave it his best shot. He had the burden of proof, not you. The cell phone call rescued him from an uncomfortable situation. Anger caused him to handle his departure less graciously than normal. He should at least call you back and apologize for his curt departure.

tms

29

The Retractable Dangling Carrot

by TMS in

jw
friends

some scattered thoughts about the granting or denial of privileges of service as a control mechanism:.

this method of persuasion involving reward or punishment is so deeply ingrained in watchtower function, it is second nature.

although sometimes subtle, sometimes blatant, everyone from new bible study to traveling overseer is subconsciously aware of the possible limiting of his official opportunities to serve god and his brothers.. .

TMS

I wonder if the carrot is still dangled in 2008.

20

"Not of Our Sort" Part I

by TMS in

jw
friends

i am an old man.. this is a topic i have been comtemplating for some time as i continue in this transitional time of my life, reminiscing about my 50+ years with what some of you call the "borg", but i simply refer to as jehovah's witnesses.. good people i have known who loved god, but did not fit into the organizational scheme of things is the topic.

there will be at least three parts a la amazing.

this topic will sink out of sight like a rock, but it is therapeutic to write it and the contemplation brings a smile to my face.. my first subject is b.w.. b.w.

TMS

This topic was posted 6-1/2 years ago. I don't think anyone who originally posted to this thread still posts on JWD. Bill saw a need and fulfulled without asking permission. Our Kingdom Hall then some faded, sorry wooden letters. He replaced them with beautiful brass designating Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. He also replaced our primitive mail slot with a six slots for all of the major players at the Kingdom Hall including himself. He was barely regarded as a JW, so this was removed. (I was honored briefly to have my own mail slot at a very young age. LOL!) I mentioned in the thread the Town Hall restaurant. It was sort of a Chamber of Commerce, Rotary Club type restaurant. All the players in the city used it. Bill caught my wife and I there once. He found the waiter and changed our hamburger order to filet mignon. We were pioneers and I was making about $30.00 a week. Needless to say, we had never had filet mignon. Bill would sometimes convince people on the strength of his personal magnetism to visit the Kingdom Hall, but we never could retain them.

tms

20

"Not of Our Sort" Part I

by TMS in

jw
friends

i am an old man.. this is a topic i have been comtemplating for some time as i continue in this transitional time of my life, reminiscing about my 50+ years with what some of you call the "borg", but i simply refer to as jehovah's witnesses.. good people i have known who loved god, but did not fit into the organizational scheme of things is the topic.

there will be at least three parts a la amazing.

this topic will sink out of sight like a rock, but it is therapeutic to write it and the contemplation brings a smile to my face.. my first subject is b.w.. b.w.

TMS

I passed by Bill's old house yesterday. It's a little run down. He's been gone over thirty years now. He was such a square peg for our righteous theocratic round hole, but everyone accepted his generosity. I wish I had been a little older, wiser during that time. . . . . . . .He was such a do-er. After his divorce left him financially dry(by his own acquiesence), he rode a moped from Brownsville, TX to New York. . worked in construction for the summer. . made $20,000. . operating cranes, etc. This was the 60's. He set out on a worldwide tour of the branch facilities, etc. to make a non-sanctioned film for the Society. No one could talk him out of it. LOL! Just so much I could tell. . . .

tms

122

The Very Best "Protest" Songs?

by hillary_step in

hard to believe that jackson browne wrote this piece twenty-two years ago.

hard to believe just how apt it is for the modern america.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpfdbklumqk&feature=related.

laura nyro - save the country.

TMS

Just noticed this thread. . . . thanks Hillary. . . . . I was really into this genre in the 60's as it synced w/my JW beliefs(I thought).

One of my personal favorites:

Sky Pilot (The Animals)

He blesses the boys as they stand in line
The smell of gun grease and the bayonets they shine
He's there to help them all that he can
To make them feel wanted he's a good holy man
Sky pilot.....sky pilot
How high can you fly
You'll never, never, never reach the sky

He smiles at the young soldiers
Tells them its all right
He knows of their fear in the forthcoming fight
Soon there'll be blood and many will die
Mothers and fathers back home they will cry
Sky pilot.....sky pilot
How high can you fly
You'll never, never, never reach the sky

He mumbles a prayer and it ends with a smile
The order is given
They move down the line
But he's still behind and he'll meditate
But it won't stop the bleeding or ease the hate
As the young men move out into the battle zone
He feels good, with God you're never alone
He feels tired and he lays on his bed
Hopes the men will find courage in the words that he said
Sky pilot.....sky Pilot
How high can you fly

You'll never, never, never reach the sky
You're soldiers of God you must understand
The fate of your country is in your young hands
May God give you strength
Do your job real well
If it all was worth it
Only time it will tell

In the morning they return
With tears in their eyes
The stench of death drifts up to the skies
A soldier so ill looks at the sky pilot
Remembers the words
"Thou shalt not kill"
Sky pilot.....sky pilot
How high can you fly
You never, never, never reach the sky

37

Will Carnivorous Jehovah Establish A Vegetarian New World?

by TMS in

god jehovah has had a preoccupation, if not an obsession with meat.

although cain worked hard to produce an offering of vegetables, it was rejected because it was not meat.

priests were instructed to save certain cuts of meat for jehovah, the fatty portions.

TMS

Of course I was not trying to present what the Bible "teaches". That doesn't interest me anymore. My intent was to show what we as JW's believed and were taught. Personally, as a JW I was never certain of the New World being vegan. I usually showed my Bible Studies texts describing paradise menus including "dishes filled with marrow" or "joints and their marrow". Marrow seemed close enough to meat to somewhat open the door of meat-eating as a possibility.

Most of my adult years were spent in Arkansas and Texas, where meat eating and hunting are considered important even by JW's. It was difficult enough to ask potential disciples to give up Christmas, birthdays, etc. "No meat" might have been a deal breaker.

When the Watchtower came up with the "adjusted understanding" of Isaiah 11, applying it to the personality changes of individuals, they faced a real dilemna. To have reversed the "lion will eat straw like the bull" literal understanding would have nullified all the paradise art work. The cutesy stories about a little girl and the lion would have been mute. They came up with a compromise: primary application=figurative, secondary application=literal.

As to the "great evening meal of God" literalness, that concept has become more ludicrous as the world's population has grown. There's even some JW specualtion out there about Jehovah zapping most of the carcasses magically, leaving merely a ceremonial cleanup for the birds.

How difficult it would be to present all these Watchtower concepts with a straight face. It's embarrassing now to admit that I believed all this stuff for over fifty years.

tms