In this thread I mentioned having a long chat with an elder last summer. I didn't realize I had never posted the story, so here it is.
Last summer (when I went to buy my new camera lens) I ran into one of my favorite JWs at the photography shop. He was buying a camera bag for his new dSLR, and I saw him, went up and greeted him, hugged him. (I'm not a particularly huggy person, it is a measure of my affection for this man that I would greet him this way.)
It has been 7 years since we were in that congregation, so he was not aware of our leaving the organization. I have known this man and his wife since I was a child, they have a son only about a year older than I. His son has been through the wringer the last several years. His wife left him, he was devastated, got involved with someone who was very sweet to him, which led (naturally) to his becoming disfellowshipped. He has evidently been trying for 4-5 years to get reinstated, even married the girl that he "sinned" with, but since he doesn't/can't make every single meeting, they won't reinstate him. But THAT is a whole other tirade...
Anyways, M**** and I spoke at length about our cameras, and he was enthusiastic to find another "shooter," since his closest photo friend is another JW (who I also have known since I was very young), who lives in Newport, about 2-1/2 hours from here. He wanted to get lunch sometime later in the week and have a mini-lesson on camera settings and basic photo principles. HE was going to help me with basic post-processing functions in photoshop (he does graphic design/editing, though he's new to actual photography.)
I was quite pleased to see him, and it honestly never occurred to me that he didn't have any idea of our current JW status. My husband's parents attend that congregation and my MIL is quite friendly with his wife.
After about 15 minutes of happy chatting, he finally landed on the robot questions:
him: So what congregation are you attending now?
me: We don't attend
him: you mean you're in between? switching congregations?
me: no, we don't go
him: at all? how long has that been?
me: 4-5 years
him: but you intend to go back...
me: no, we don't
him: what happened?
me: we made a decision, and that's probably all I should say.
him: well, I'd be very interested in hearing what led you to that.
me: I don't think that would be a good idea.
him: it's okay, I'm an elder, we can have this conversation. Just between us.
hehe. So, I thought about it for a few seconds, and instantly realized that I really have nothing to protect. My parents will always be hot/cold dealing with me, and my brother has decided not to shun me anymore, so what's the difference. Even if I tell him exactly what I think, and he does go and start a judicial process against me, my life won't change. It was an interesting realization. (#1)
So I told him. Or rather, I let him lead the conversation and "drag" it out of me. I've always felt that if you let the other person lead a conversation, you find out much more quickly what is important to them, and where they are vulnerable to reason.
This is a small sampling of an hour and a half conversation, and not necessarily in order.
He (unsurprisingly) led off with "Where else would I go?" I told him that was the wrong question, it was not the question Peter asked, he was asking Jesus, who else would he follow, not what other religion should he go to. M replied to look at the other religions, they are not acceptable. I said that just because 100 other religions out there are wrong, does not mean that religion 101 is correct, it's a logical fallacy. False correlation.
He then moved quickly through the generation. ("what they changed it again? I heard that. So what is it going to be in two years? Is it a moving target? How do you know what's 'truth' if it's changing all the time?") We went to unjust discipline- many years ago he was reproved and restricted for two years because he ratted out the circuit overseer for being a slanderer. Apparently it was more efficacious to punish the whistleblower than to replace the C.O. He kept saying "but those are just men."
I finally asked him how long he can keep repeating the same phrase in an effort to explain away everything that was wrong? At what point does Brooklyn have to take responsibility for the things going on in the congregations? How many times can he fall back on the same excuse like it's some kind of mantra warding off the rot?
He asked me if I believe in God. I answered (incompletely) that I have a very difficult time accepting God as he is portrayed in the OT, that God being unreasonably cruel. He responded that I knew that was for a reason. I said that I used to accept that, but that it was like dropping a nuclear bomb on Beaverton (pop. 80k) wiping out every man, woman, baby, dog and kitty cat. And that was equal to one single God-ordered Old Testament battle. Not loving at all.
Then he went back to the disfellowshipping (of his son) and how I knew it was out of love. He asked if I believed in corporal punishment. I responded that I thought as a last resort there could be justification for physically disciplining a child, but that the JWs often take it way too far and are praised for it. He said that he had only spanked his son once in his life, but he needed it, and sometimes people need to be df'd, out of love.
I asked him: So if your son did something really awful and malicious, on purpose, and you found out about it, and the action warranted a beating, would you, as a loving father, then go on to beat him over it every single day for a year? He said of course not, but it's not the same thing. I said that disfellowshipping is the spiritual equivalent of beating a child every day. His response was that people don't get df'd if they’re repentant and don't do it again. I just looked at him and said, "come on, you've sat on enough of these committees to know that's simply not true. Not to mention that some people need more assistance than the elders are trained to give. So a simple 'don't do it again' is meaningless." He had no response.
I then asked him what he thought of the multimillion judgment against WT for cover-ups of child molestation. He said 1. it sounded like a conspiracy, and that the courts were likely manipulated, and 2. that was just men. I informed him that Brooklyn was part of the defense and that their defense team did everything they could, up to and including lying, to get the evidence of multiple years, and multiple victims, suppressed. That in one instance, in my sister-in-law's congregation, one of the rapists was known to the elders, who kept everything quiet, and he went on to rape at least 20 little girls over a 14 year period and is currently on AMW’s list. Again he said "those are just men." I said, Brooklyn is defending its actions in the cases of those men.
He didn't believe me. I told him that 5000 pages of court transcripts had been made available online and that he could easily confirm the lies and cover-ups for himself, just look it up. He said he wouldn't be doing that.
He then replied again that "those are just men" and that if I could just overlook that and "hang on for 1-2 more years, we would be in the new system and it would be over. Jehovah would deal with it. Wouldn't it be worth 1-2 more years of endurance to be in paradise?"
(Up until this time, the conversation, though intense, was civil, even nearly pleasant.)
He said: "But you know that the Witnesses are the only ones doing the preaching work."
Me: That's simply not true. I've had several groups call at my door, reading scriptures and offering bible studies, just like the JWs. JWs might have some right to claim that they’re the only ones that every man woman and child goes preaching, but open your eyes, there are lots of other religions doing door-to-door preaching.
Him: But with what results?
Me: Can't be any worse than the JWs. Door to door preaching is a tremendously ineffective way to educate people or bring them into the organization.
Him: How can you say that?
Me: Think about it. It takes thousands and thousands of hours of effort to make even one prospect, much less a convert. How much better would that time be spent making a REAL effort at education? Even a full college education is only about 2000 hours of class time.
Then he brought up the fact that there is going to be a new training for elders starting.
Like pioneer school. I said "That's not good enough, it's more training for the elite. When is WT going to train everyone?" He said they get their training in the WT. I said: Have you seen the WT lately? Its IQ is geared toward an 8 year old. It's so simplistic, and you study the same things over and over, like reading a child's book every week! He responded that the WT was changing too. I told him "you can't seriously believe that it will become that much more complex do you?"
He said, well what do you want WT to do? I told him, almost every other religion has a formal training class, at the college level, to train their adherents. Either classes, seminary, university... something. He said "Brooklyn can't train 6 million people like that!" I said: "Why not, the Mormon's have done it for 12 million people!"
Then he got mad. LOL. (Education is a very sore spot for him. He is college educated. His son -very smart - is not. Mainly because of WT.) Then the phone rang. Then he picked up the phone and got in his car and drove off without even saying goodbye.
I guarantee he WILL think about this next time he spends 3 hours knocking on doors with NO results.
I think he knows that the congregation can be quite cruel and capricious, but he chooses not to let himself really think about it.
His son, and education, are the weak spots with him, but after so many years of devotion to the idea, I think he just can't be wrong. That is his choice. And I won't gild the sow's ear so that he can be comfortable in his unreasonableness.
So that is the very very long, very very abridged version of the conversation. And if you're still with me, here are some of my realizations:
1. I've always given dyed-in-the-wool JWs a kind of a "pass" because they are indoctrinated... just like I was. I felt sorry for them because they really can't see where they are mistaken, or cruel, or inconsistent...
This conversation - my first lengthy conversation with a JW in over 5 years- really illuminated the fact that they CHOOSE to be unenlightened, they CHOOSE to be unreasonable. When faced with incontrovertible proof of the fallacy of their reasoning, they either change the subject or become belligerent. No reasonableness whatsoever. No attempt even made to be logical and reasonable.
I can no longer, in good conscience, either give them a "pass" or feel sorry for them. They CHOOSE to wallow in manure even after you hand them soap, a towel, clean clothes and point them toward the shower.
2. I've always counted my time as a JW as 30 years. It occurred to me that 22 of those years were in my parent's house, under very controlled conditions. Once I left home, it took me 8 years to completely break the programming. Only 8. Not bad. This man CHOOSES, as an adult in control of his faculties and environment, to believe and behave this way- for 40+ years.
I will no longer be convinced that an intelligent, adult JW can go that long without many, many proofs that they are on the wrong track.
3. I see no reason to censor my words and thoughts about their religion, in consideration for their time there, or that they're old, or they'd have no friends, etc. They have ample proof of their wrong-headedness. My words change nothing. They choose to believe before I speak, and they will/can choose to believe after I am honest.
As a final note in the conversation (just before he got mad about education,) when he asked me if I could hang on for 1-2 more years, I told him that my integrity would not allow me to stay involved in the JWs, and that I had to make that decision honestly and with integrity, just as he did. I couldn't stay because my parents were sad, or because of fear, or any other reason like that if it violated my integrity. Quite a lot was made in this conversation about being loving. Though I didn't mention it too much here, I tried to bring every subject back to the fact that HE, as a loving parent, would NEVER treat his own son that way. His only response was that it was different.
I don't know if anyone will actually wade through the conversation, but it feels good to get it out there. It makes me a little bit sad too, because of all the people I've known in my life as a JW, this man was one of the few I really respected. But I can't anymore, because I clearly see that he CHOOSES to be just as deluded as any of them.
And finally, I’d like to leave you with this priceless comment.
At one point he had no answer for an objection, he said:
"Well, maybe you're just too intelligent for Jehovah."
Maybe I am. I can only hope.
Postscript: I have not been contacted following this conversation. And though I suspect he filled my parents and in-laws in on everything I said, I haven’t heard a peep about it from anyone.