Posts by dabster

91

Proof of God

by MrDantastic in

i'm an atheist as i do not see any evidence for the existance of a god.

i encourage critical thinking in everyone and am ready to debate anyone on whether or not there is a god and what that god might be like.

hmu..

dabster

Why would you give agnostics any thought? Since, in your view, there is no God, what does it matter that some people don't know whether God exists or not? - dabster
An agnostic is NOT somebody who can't decide whether or not god exists. This is a common misunderstanding. An agnostic is a position that whether or not god exists is unknowable.

Thanks for your prompt reply, cofty.

So let me understand you correctly. While an agnostic is not somebody who can't decide whether or not God exists - which you understand me to be saying when I say "some people don't know whether God exists or not",

An agnostic is a position that whether or not god exists is unknowable.

Your sentence is a bit, well, muddled but the key bit is "is unknowable". Now then, how is that any different from my "some people don't know whether God exists or not"?

There's plenty in the rest of what you say that we could also tease out - another time, perhaps - but people want me to work for them right now.

91

Proof of God

by MrDantastic in

i'm an atheist as i do not see any evidence for the existance of a god.

i encourage critical thinking in everyone and am ready to debate anyone on whether or not there is a god and what that god might be like.

hmu..

dabster

Personally I don't believe in agnostics. They are just muddled about the question.

Cofty,

Why would you give agnostics any thought? Since, in your view, there is no God, what does it matter that some people don't know whether God exists or not? You seem bent on having people believe as you do. Why? Perhaps you feel better about yourself if others agree with you - but even then, why you would need to is beyond me. What does it matter that others do? What does it matter if people are muddled?

I haven't been here in years but remember you as one of the more vocal members. Why wouldn't it be as acceptable for someone to believe in God as you would presumably argue it is for you not to?

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

cofty, it's hard to identify the "something original", "something special". Witherington is no slouch. You seem to have an enquiring mind; what he has written might appeal, I thought. No need though. Other than that, the bluster, huffing, puffing, brow-beating and haranguing is tiresome. Should this approach encourage me to follow your advice? Look, I might bow out at this point and dwell on the sorts of things you've raised over a longer period in my more contemplative moments. I have a business to run and a family to care for. Now, if any of this amounts to intellectual dishonesty it's something we will have to live with.

At the same time I wonder about your question, " Is this the Charles Kraft who has made his money selling books to convince gullible people that all their problems are caused by demons?" All their problems? And am I promoting the subjecting of little girls to appalling ordeals? Who's being dishonest now?
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Apogno, which anecodotes in, say, the Geivett & Habermas book did you have in mind?

Not sure what you're hoping for with, "If you saw somebody moaning and drooling with their eyes back in their head, how you would tell if they were (a) demon-possessed, (b) on a drug trip, or (c) having a seizure?", but I certainly wouldn't perform an exorcism. I'd call an ambulance.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

If by " Is that it?", cofty, you are asking is that all I have by way of reply to your response to my original post, the answer (do I really need to spell this out?) is no. This clearly wasn't a response to those comments at all. It had to do with your advice to im_free that he read Ehrman and was by a scholar who may well know one or two things you don't. You did mention wanting to know the truth, something I thought revealed humility and teachableness ion your part and offered a suggestion. I think it good advice, the conventions of discussion notwithstanding. But if, as now appears to be the case, your mind is closed, no amount of discussion will change anything, though it may help others.

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I'd advise anyone with any doubts about demonisation to read another academic, Charles Kraft, on that matter if it didn't contravene the rules.

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I can't get away from the feeling that some agnostics or atheists here are at least as blinkered as they accuse the Christians of being. It's not hard to find to find books like In Defence of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Action in History (Geivett & Habermas, Eds.). Okay, sorry, no more references to books.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

I made the suggestion, cofty, as you had suggested im_free read Ehrman - and because you wanted to know the truth as soon as possible. For yourself, I assumed. It's a very detailed analysis, outside the scope of a discussion forum even in précis form but which would potentially help anyone interested in extra-curricular reading In forming a view. No need though. We can let the matter rest.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

cofty, I like Ben Witherington apparently for the same reason that you like Bart Ehrman. Their works make for compelling reading. I'd encourage you, since you "don't want to be wrong any longer than necessary", to read Witherington's analysis - all six parts - and get back to us with your answers. You'll find him to be a formidable sparing partner in debate.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

Tell us how you really feel, cofty.

Thanks for your posts. I might have misinterpreted your words to im_free but haven't deliberately misrepresented anything. What you've written is food for thought. It'll be interesting to tease out the implications but it might be a while before I can. I'm small of brain and life is busy right now anyway. It might be a good exercise in clear thinking though.

Oh, do I believe the bible is the inspired word of God? Yes, I do. It was through the preaching of God's word that I came to know him and he speaks to me through it on a daily basis. So I would, as you'd expect.

Oh again. Bart. That will have to wait too, cofty. The day has begun here and I've got a lot to do. Not nimbly sidestepping anything - just don't have the time to devote to this right at the moment. I genuinely wish I did.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

Not a problem, cofty. I'm still here.

A detailed analysis of Bart Ehrman's book 'Jesus, Interrupted' by Ben Witherington and called 'Bart Interrupted' starts here: http://benwitherington.blogspot.com.au/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of.html. It's a helpful corrective and well worth reading.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

I'm sorry Cofty. Happy to call you by your nick. I wasn't aware of the etiquette. I've only ever been dabster.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

dabster

Thanks Bill. I look forward to it.