Posts by TerryWalstrom

3

JW-PTSD (Also known as the Norman Bates syndrome)

by TerryWalstrom in

the jw religion is sort of like norman bates' mother.

she was supposed to be a proper caretaker, teacher, and role model--but--instead she was a corrupting influence.. even after 'mother' is gone--it is so easy to keep her embalmed in our subconscious like norman did in the fruit cellar.. when pressures weigh heavily on us and we start losing it--well, something like the character and personality of 'mother' may creep into our thinking.

mightn't it?we really have to exert our individuality at all times and rise above.

TerryWalstrom

And they see themselves as Neutral in time of War!

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How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

Concerning the disambiguation of JOHN THE APOSTLE and JOHN (the Presbyter or writer of Revelation) we read:

From wiki:

After quoting Papias, Eusebius continues:

It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter.

This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John.

And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.

Eusebius identifies John the Presbyter as the author of the Book of Revelation, the canonical status of which he disputed as he disagreed with its content, especially the Chiliasm implied in the "millennial kingdom".

The view of Eusebius was taken up by the Church Father Jerome in De Viris Illustribus (On Illustrious Men). In Chapter 9, which deals with the Apostle John and his writings, he ascribes to him both the Gospel and the First Epistle, and continues to say:

The other two [Epistles] of which the first is "The elder to the elect lady and her children" and the other "The elder unto Gaius the beloved whom I love in truth," are said to be the work of John the presbyter to the memory of whom another sepulchre is shown at Ephesus to the present day, though some think that there are two memorials of this same John the evangelist.[2]

In Chapter 18, discussing Papias, Jerome repeats the fragment quoted above and continues:

It appears through this catalogue of names that the John who is placed among the disciples is not the same as the elder John whom he places after Aristion in his enumeration. This we say moreover because of the opinion mentioned above, where we record that it is declared by many that the last two epistles of John are the work not of the apostle but of the presbyter.

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How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

I understand what you're saying, jhine.

I take it (John 21:25) as expressing an estimation of how many things were said and done by Jesus which were never written down in contrast to the few things which were.

First century Christians were apocalyptic in their expectations. They believed Jesus when he told them they would 'by no means' complete the circuit of cities preaching the coming Kingdom of God before He returned.

Millions then living would never die. (Wee joke)

Each new generation of Christian believers had a slightly more 'evolved' story to believe as the passage of time kept falsifying claims of "soon" for the return of Christ.

THE NEED FOR WRITING THINGS DOWN must have seemed wholly unnecessary at first--but--as time passed--more and more so.

We know the stories of Jesus and His teachings were constantly changing because they were transmitted orally among the Jewish Messianic Christians until the Bishop of Hieropolis took the trouble to interview and write down current teachings from those who had been taught by disciples and Apostles.

STILL WITHIN THE FIRST CENTURY, the tales were so wild and divergent few Gentile Christians could believe them. The first church historian, Eusebius, thought most of what Papias (the Bishop who conducted the interviews) reported was goofy nincompoopery.

11

the torch

by Mr.logic in

since the wt organization claims 'apostolic succession " who was it that passed the torch to c.t.

russell who founded this organization of sheeple?

ask judge rutherford, or milton henschel, maybe they know.

TerryWalstrom

Mr. logic: Since the WT organization claims "apostolic succession " who was it that passed the torch to C.T. Russell who founded this organization of sheeple?

_____________________

First century Christians were apocalyptic in their expectations. They believed Jesus when he told them they would 'by no means' complete the circuit of cities preaching the coming Kingdom of God before He returned.

Millions then living would never die. (Wee joke)

Each new generation of Christian believers had a slightly more 'evolved' story to believe as the passage of time kept falsifying claims of "soon" for the return of Christ.

We know the stories of Jesus and His teachings were constantly changing because they were transmitted orally among the Jewish Messianic Christians until the Bishop of Hieropolis took the trouble to interview and write down current teachings from those who had been taught by disciples and Apostles.

STILL WITHIN THE FIRST CENTURY, the tales were so wild and divergent few Gentile Christians could believe them. The first church historian, Eusebius, thought most of what Papias (the Bishop who conducted the interviews) reported was goofy nincompoopery.

Why do I mention this?

The idea of any necessity of APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION would fly in the face of Jesus coming back 'soon.'

About three to four hundred years after Jesus had disappeared, the idea of 'succession' began to seem more and more necessary for credibility.

Jesus gave Peter the "keys to the Kingdom" and the church used that as pretext for

a 'hand-me-down' situation.

So my direct answer to your question is: A fictional need for apostolic succession has no need of explaining.

In all honesty, it was the Protestant Revolution which brought a do-it-yourself approach to salvation. Martin Luther replaced the idea of an infallible Pope with a new doctrine called SOLA SCRIPTURA. That meant any Joe Blow could simply read scriptures and pray and "presto" God would reveal the 'truth' and the 'meaning' of it all.

This do-it-yourself hubris led to sects springing up like mushrooms in a forest after a spring rain!

Today we have 40 THOUSAND Christian denominations.

Pastor Russell was against sectarianism AND organization. It was his wife, Maria (pronounced Moe-rye-uh) who applied the "faithful and wise servant" parable to her hubby and regarded it as a prophecy fulfilled in the Pastor's ministry.

This Hocus-Pocus is as close as you can get to "apostolic succession" in the JW

teachings. A direct hotline to Jehovah has proved to be a powerful MacGuffin for claims of Authority, hasn't it?

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

Mephis-I don't think you can make the leap to Papias' works being suppressed or deliberately destroyed because they are lost?

_______________

Controversies threatened the peace within Constantine's rule, otherwise he would not have given a rat's pucker about divergent religious squabbles.

There is, pragmatically, no other way to settle differences in religious belief than to resort to proscription (banning.) You can't legislate what people THINK, only what they practice.

There is a fourfold stage echoed in today's Jehovah's Witness Governing Body in its dealings with Internet material by ex-JW's, Apostates, and religious critics.

1. Undermine the person

2. Marginalize the message

3. Spread pejoratives about both

4. Propagandize counterfactually

Eusebius had to deal with the fact Papias was well-regarded for several hundred years. There was nothing he could do retroactively except what he did proceed to do.

In his official Church History, Eusebius undermined Papias' intelligence, ridiculed Papias' writings as legend, myth, and exaggeration, and undermined his reputation.

The absence of copies of so well-attested a work as the 5 volumes of a Bishop who interviewed Apostles, disciples of Apostles and pressed for explanations is, well awfully suspicious to my mind.

Tertullian's work survives--AND FOR THAT REASON--makes the non-survival of Papias all the more suspect. It isn't what Tertullian believed which is important so much as what Papias' 5 volumes report which made it dangerous to uber-orthodoxy.

Papias was too well known to be obliterated entirely, but no so protected from Church hierarchy as to escape 'other means' necessary.

I present only circumstantial arguments, certainly.

Your mileage may vary.

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

DATA DOG:

Are you saying that this one ancient dude's writing was dismissed because he was writing about what the Jewish Xians really believed, and that other Religious "leaders" we're embarrassed because it was nutty??

_________________

Papius was like TV's COLUMBO. Only maybe more like a latter-day apostate detective.

He went after clues and quite determined about it.

The Gentile Christians pretty much found themselves unencumbered by Jewish tradition and ritual. They had no dog in the fight. So, by the time Rome's emperor convoked a happy get-together to iron out discord. . . the rift was too huge.

In a Court of Law, a lot depends on proper evidence.

The Church destroyed whatever it (at the time) disagreed with.

They dismissed one entire side of the argument (Papius report on oral 'evidence' of Jesus' teachings, Apostolic explanations, miracles, etc.)

Why even the Bible canon itself is nothing more than the 'official' opinion of the like-minded, Gentile branch of 4th century Christianity.

Fast forward to the 11th century. What happened?

This rift completely cut Christianity in half. Rome was eventually swallowed up by the Barbarians and along with it the pagan Gentile Christian Vatican.

The Constantinople branch was independent of Rome.

From 476 A.D. to 1453 A.D. the Barbarians and Moslems did not prevail.

IN A NUTSHELL. . .

If the writings of Papius and all the others (non-conforming to Rome) were still extant, wouldn't we have a far more accurate set of data (evidence) to reconstruct ideal Early Christian teachings?

In the 16th Century, the Protestant Revolution removed from the canon, the books it did not agree with. In fact, all through history--those who can use their power and authority to destroy evidence against orthodoxy.

JW's do the same today with taboos against 'Apostate' writings and counter evidence.

See a trend here?

3

JW-PTSD (Also known as the Norman Bates syndrome)

by TerryWalstrom in

the jw religion is sort of like norman bates' mother.

she was supposed to be a proper caretaker, teacher, and role model--but--instead she was a corrupting influence.. even after 'mother' is gone--it is so easy to keep her embalmed in our subconscious like norman did in the fruit cellar.. when pressures weigh heavily on us and we start losing it--well, something like the character and personality of 'mother' may creep into our thinking.

mightn't it?we really have to exert our individuality at all times and rise above.

TerryWalstrom

The JW religion is sort of like Norman Bates' mother.

She was supposed to be a proper caretaker, teacher, and role model--but--instead she was a corrupting influence.

Even after 'Mother' is gone--it is so easy to keep her embalmed in our subconscious like Norman did in the fruit cellar.

When pressures weigh heavily on us and we start losing it--well, something like the character and personality of 'Mother' may creep into our thinking. . . mightn't it?
We really have to exert our individuality at all times and rise above.

We are free. No, really we are---but, only if we can say goodbye to all that.

So my fellow Apostates, take that shabby dress off, remove that silly wig, and put the cutlery back in the drawer. You don't want to have to mop up all that mess in the bathroom later---right?

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

Can history really be destroyed?

Would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?

Can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early Christian church?

This is the story of one man and his efforts to tell the Truth, the Whole Truth and

how his work was lost (deliberately).

____________________________

BACKGROUND: The city of Hierapolis was situated near Laodicea and Colossae in the Lycus River valley of Phrygia. Today the city is known as Pamukkale, Turkey. Papias was the bishop during the reign of Emperor Trajan (98–117 CE)

________________________________

Among the very earliest followers of The Way (Akolouthontes He Hodos) of Jesus were two distinct branches (competing practices) divided along the lines of—as historically it had always divided—Gentiles and Jews.

Paul’s early converts were primarily Gentiles (Goyim). This branch of Christian community exercised none of the taboos, legal restrictions, or authoritarian dietary caveats which their Jewish counterparts considered ‘normal’ and mandatory. Birds of a feather, as always, flocked into separate ‘togethers’ (brotherhood.)

In Hierapolis (today’s Turkey) of Asia Minor, a preponderance of Jews committed to Jesus accumulated. Their practice was oral transmission of sacred teachings. Word of mouth transmission by the Jewish apostles to their disciples undoubtedly inspired the words of

John 21: 25:

“And there are also many other things which Jesus (Yeshua) did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.”

Did you catch the point? “. . . IF THEY WERE WRITTEN . . . “

They were NOT.

The convention of the Jewish Christians was still oral. As a direct consequence of this non-literary habit, details were lost over time. If John 21:25 is not hyperbole, more was lost than preserved!

Enter our hero Papius ( episkopis or ‘bishop’) of Hierapolis.

Papius didn’t have much regard for the writings of the 1st century because what he read did not seem to match the rich details of what he heard first hand.

If he wanted the job done right—he had to do it himself by interviewing those closest in time and proximity to the living Jesus as well as his Apostles (presbyters or Elders.)

Here is his explanation of what he set out to do:

“But I shall not be unwilling to put down, along with my interpretations, whatsoever instructions I received with care at any time from the elders, and stored up with care in my memory, assuring you at the same time of their truth. For I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those who spoke much, but in those who taught the truth; nor in those who related strange commandments, but in those who rehearsed the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and proceeding from truth itself. If, then, anyone who had attended on the elders came, I asked minutely after their sayings, –– what Andrew or Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the Lord’s disciples: which things Aristion and the [elder] John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I imagined that what was to be got from books was not so profitable to me as what came from the living and abiding voice.”

Papias set to work collecting the oral traditions of the apostolic community. He arranged them into a five-volume work called An Exposition of the Sayings of the Master. As the Torah was arranged in Five Volumes, so too did Papias arrange his works.

Apparently, his sources were believers from within the communities who had studied at the feet of the apostles. Whenever these believers in Yeshua (Jesus) were passing through the region of Hierapolis, Papias quizzed them for information, stories, adages, traditions, and (especially) sayings of the Master.

In addition to information gleaned from travelers, Papias may have heard the apostle John firsthand. It is possible that Papias had briefly known the venerable Apostle John near the end of his lifetime.

Philip and two of his daughters had relocated to Hierapolis. Philip’s two daughters were still alive in the days of bishop Papias, and he knew them personally and gathered lore from them. (Acts 21:9 tells us that Philip the evangelist had “four virgin daughters who were prophetesses.” In the book of Acts, Paul and company stayed with them briefly at their home in Caesarea.)

Papias refers to the original generation of the Apostles as “the elders.” (Presbyters)

Does he mention the ‘Apostle’ Paul? No, he does not!

Why not?

Paul did not fit the criteria Papias spelled out because he was seeking the traditions and teachings of those who had known the Master firsthand!

Interestingly, Papias makes special mention of two otherwise unknown disciples of Yeshua (Jesus) who were apparently still alive in his day: Aristion and an apostle known as John the Elder. John the Elder is not John the son of Zebedee, but another disciple with the same first name. Papias himself carefully indicates that he merely heard their teachings second hand from disciples of theirs that traveled to Hierapolis.

As can be seen and deduced, Papius was a diligent, careful, and strict investigator.

We might well ask why this Bishop of Hieropolis held such a distinction between the Gospel written) accounts and the oral versions. When Papias wrote that “what was to be got from books was not so profitable to me as what came from the living and abiding voice,” he was not discrediting the written Gospels. Instead, He was simply saying that the oral tradition was vaster and more meaningful to him because it came with explanations.

You could not ask questions and seek clarification of a book, but you could of a living person.

Papius gives details we cannot acquire anyplace else about authors of the Gospels.

For example, Papias relates that John Mark was the author of the Gospel of Mark, and he tells us about the circumstances in Rome that prompted its writing:

“Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of [Messiah]. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterward, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord’s sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not put anything fictitious into the statements.”

Papias attributes the composition of a Hebrew gospel to the disciple Matthew.

He says, “Matthew put together the oracles [of the Master] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them [into Greek] as best he could.”

Papias possessed material that would make a good sequel to the book of Acts. He relates a tale of how a dead man was raised to life in Hierapolis during Philip’s day. He narrates an episode about how the disciple Joseph Barsabbas (Acts 1:23) was once compelled to drink poison but miraculously suffered no ill effect. He preserves tradition and fantastical anecdotes about the traitor Judas and his fate. He passes on otherwise unknown teachings of Yeshua.

The finest example of his work is an intriguing midrash on Genesis 27:28–29 that he purports to be an authentic teaching of Yeshua. Papias captured a wealth of lore about Yeshua, his first followers, and those early communities of Jewish believers not recorded elsewhere.

Why has the five volume investigation of Papius been lost to history?

Remember, his community was Jewish Christianity and not Gentile. The church fathers found little of interest in the thoroughly Jewish work of Papias. Instead, they found teachings and traditions that sounded foreign to their ears and that contradicted church doctrines. Papius’ work sounded too “Jewish.”

Historically and politically, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. drove a wedge between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. The nationalistic rebels in Judaism had brought about the invasion by the Roman armies into Palestine. Gentiles distanced themselves and began publicly marginalizing Jews in every way. This feeling became a big part of early Catholic sentiment.

When the first official Catholic historian, Eusebius wrote his Ecclesiastical History of the Christian church, he was compelled to draw upon much of Papius’ testimony while belittling the man whenever convenient to dismiss teachings the Catholic hierarchy now regarded as unorthodox.

Though he employs some of the traditions he found in Exposition of the Sayings of the Master, he complains that Papias set down:

“… strange parables and instructions of the Savior, and some other things of a more fabulous nature. Amongst these he says that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth.”

Did you catch that?

The official view of the Early Church was that the Thousand Year Reign of Christ was not a literal belief. It was just some strange and fabulous oral tradition passed along by Jews in Asia Minor!

By the age of Eusebius, the belief in a literal, thousand-year reign of the Messiah Yeshua on earth was considered to be Jewish “foolishness.” By then, churchmen had spiritualized and allegorized the prophecies of the messianic era. Most Christians no longer believed in a literal messianic kingdom on earth.

Eusebius was frustrated that Papias interpreted things literally, and accused him of “misunderstanding the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figurative language.” Accordingly, Eusebius referred to Papias as “a man of small mental capacity.” This slight was Eusebius’s way of dismissing the material contained in Papias’s five volumes. Papuis works were rich in Jewish tradition and rabbinic methods of exegesis, it appeared to the Gentile Christian Eusebius like gibberish.

The other church leaders viewed the material with equal suspicion. For that reason, the book was not copied and preserved like other writings of the early church fathers.

In fact, any existing copies of Papius’ works may well have been burned as not “upbuilding the faith.”

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June 2015 Watchtower equating Apostates with The Antichrist!

by nicolaou in

shit!

it finally happened.. years ago i speculated on this happening but can't find the posts.

anyway, this is a tactically aggressive move by wt.

TerryWalstrom

Christ=anointed (christos)

Antichrist=false anointed (pseudochristos)

End of story

15

CAUGHT IN THE ACT OF LYING: True teaching cannot become Old Light if it becomes New Light again afterward.

by TerryWalstrom in

watchtower governing body leadership directly impacts 7 million members earth wide.

would he change a true teaching?

up to that point christians have obeyed the command at romans 13:1: "let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities.

TerryWalstrom

If the GB are currently teaching it--it is Light.

Light is Truth.

Truth is channeled from Jehovah through his 'mouthpiece' the Governing Body.

No explanation has been given which passes the smell test.

Rutherford, at first, said Pastor Russell was editing the Watchtower from heaven.

Yeah. A dead guy was being channeled!

When the Judge couldn't wring any further juice out of Russell's reputation and name, he started changing everything. In fact, Rutherford claimed angels were bringing Light from heaven as he dismantled Pastor Russells schema, brick by brick.

Next, dates were shifted, the Pyramid scheme was turned into a Satanic plot to mislead.

The Bible Students were disempowered and an official brand-name, Jehovah's Witnesses was invented.

Rutherford had two disasters in a row. His approval of THE FINISHED MYSTERY for publication resulted in being tried and convicted in court for treason.

Secondly, his Million Now Living nonsense led to 1925 and the return of 'ancient worthies.' Fiasco!

Finally, Beth Sarim was built and he went off to live there with his hangover and rectal cancer.

Where was the "Light" coming from through all these failures?

He pulled so many incredible crackpot schemes out of his ass, no wonder he died from it.