Posts by TerryWalstrom

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

The (Catholic) Church became a self-appointed clearinghouse of VALID vs INVALID

writings. It was the gatekeeper of orthodoxy.

Which writings were "inspired" and which weren't? Were any?

These are portentous matters.

What I find fascinating about Papias is what sets him apart from all the others.

Papias asked questions and got answers. He conducted interviews and wrote down his process. When you compare this process with his contemporaries, the distinctions mark a difference.

In my personal view, every speaker got their favorite chewy nugget from somebody ELSE. It is ALL hearsay. But--wouldn't it be delicious to discover what wide disparity and divergence had entered the teaching, the story and the biography of Jesus so very early on?

In Math class, you are instructed to "show your work." Why? Because the 'answers' are beside the point--the process by which the student works out the chain of logic tells the teacher the important thing: state of mind+quality of reasoning.

I like Papias. I don't like Eusebius. An honest historian allows ALL the evidence to be seen. I think we don't have Papias works because they were held back or destroyed--or--made to appear worthless.

But the greater question is this:

Why are these authorities in the Early Church so high-handed and peremptory rather than humble, modest, and open-minded?

69

Breaking News: Anthony Morris III comments on Ireland legalization of gay marriage.

by cappytan in

jw
friends

#notsatire.

thanks to wifibandit and pixel for collaborating on this.

more to come.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxce4duetw8.

TerryWalstrom

Saying without saying is clever, because you can't be quoted as having come out against the rights of others.

Chalk one up for Morris.

18

THEOCRATIC KENOSIS: the Watchtower Organization's ultimate goal for humanity

by TerryWalstrom in

ever wonder why jehovah's witnesses have almost nothing but words instead of love?.

every wonder why jw's praise their corporate leaders rather than jesus?.

every wonder why faith is only demonstrated by allowing children to die and molesters to escape, or disasters to be welcomed through obstinate demonstrations of loyalty to the org?.

TerryWalstrom

I was talking to a current, active JW on Monday.

I was asked, "What would it take, in your opinion, for the average JW to hear, learn, become aware of, which would make them suddenly 'wake up' and decide to abandon the whole religion?

Here is how I responded.

I said, "I think of Jehovah's Witnesses as passengers who have boarded a large jet airplane. They are confident of their ultimate destination and very happy with their Pilot and Co-Pilot.

Now observe! What happens if a series of errors on the part of the Pilot brought them into the middle of a terrible electric storm, with bad weather buffeting them about?

Do you think everybody on board would ask for a parachute? No way! Just the opposite!

They'd fasten themselves in tighter than before and place even MORE confidence in the flight crew because--as they see it--TRUSTING THE FLIGHT CREW IS THEIR ONLY HOPE OF SURVIVAL!

This is human nature: to FEAR LOSS more than taking a risk for GAIN.

Cognitive Dissonance describes the process perfectly. When a person's most cherished beliefs are challenged--it causes them to cling more tightly and defend against loss no matter what.

WAKING UP for a JW is like the thing which happens to an alcoholic. They have to hit bottom and see there is nothing left to lose and everything to gain.

3

JW-PTSD (Also known as the Norman Bates syndrome)

by TerryWalstrom in

the jw religion is sort of like norman bates' mother.

she was supposed to be a proper caretaker, teacher, and role model--but--instead she was a corrupting influence.. even after 'mother' is gone--it is so easy to keep her embalmed in our subconscious like norman did in the fruit cellar.. when pressures weigh heavily on us and we start losing it--well, something like the character and personality of 'mother' may creep into our thinking.

mightn't it?we really have to exert our individuality at all times and rise above.

TerryWalstrom

And they see themselves as Neutral in time of War!

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

Concerning the disambiguation of JOHN THE APOSTLE and JOHN (the Presbyter or writer of Revelation) we read:

From wiki:

After quoting Papias, Eusebius continues:

It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter.

This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John.

And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.

Eusebius identifies John the Presbyter as the author of the Book of Revelation, the canonical status of which he disputed as he disagreed with its content, especially the Chiliasm implied in the "millennial kingdom".

The view of Eusebius was taken up by the Church Father Jerome in De Viris Illustribus (On Illustrious Men). In Chapter 9, which deals with the Apostle John and his writings, he ascribes to him both the Gospel and the First Epistle, and continues to say:

The other two [Epistles] of which the first is "The elder to the elect lady and her children" and the other "The elder unto Gaius the beloved whom I love in truth," are said to be the work of John the presbyter to the memory of whom another sepulchre is shown at Ephesus to the present day, though some think that there are two memorials of this same John the evangelist.[2]

In Chapter 18, discussing Papias, Jerome repeats the fragment quoted above and continues:

It appears through this catalogue of names that the John who is placed among the disciples is not the same as the elder John whom he places after Aristion in his enumeration. This we say moreover because of the opinion mentioned above, where we record that it is declared by many that the last two epistles of John are the work not of the apostle but of the presbyter.

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

I understand what you're saying, jhine.

I take it (John 21:25) as expressing an estimation of how many things were said and done by Jesus which were never written down in contrast to the few things which were.

First century Christians were apocalyptic in their expectations. They believed Jesus when he told them they would 'by no means' complete the circuit of cities preaching the coming Kingdom of God before He returned.

Millions then living would never die. (Wee joke)

Each new generation of Christian believers had a slightly more 'evolved' story to believe as the passage of time kept falsifying claims of "soon" for the return of Christ.

THE NEED FOR WRITING THINGS DOWN must have seemed wholly unnecessary at first--but--as time passed--more and more so.

We know the stories of Jesus and His teachings were constantly changing because they were transmitted orally among the Jewish Messianic Christians until the Bishop of Hieropolis took the trouble to interview and write down current teachings from those who had been taught by disciples and Apostles.

STILL WITHIN THE FIRST CENTURY, the tales were so wild and divergent few Gentile Christians could believe them. The first church historian, Eusebius, thought most of what Papias (the Bishop who conducted the interviews) reported was goofy nincompoopery.

11

the torch

by Mr.logic in

since the wt organization claims 'apostolic succession " who was it that passed the torch to c.t.

russell who founded this organization of sheeple?

ask judge rutherford, or milton henschel, maybe they know.

TerryWalstrom

Mr. logic: Since the WT organization claims "apostolic succession " who was it that passed the torch to C.T. Russell who founded this organization of sheeple?

_____________________

First century Christians were apocalyptic in their expectations. They believed Jesus when he told them they would 'by no means' complete the circuit of cities preaching the coming Kingdom of God before He returned.

Millions then living would never die. (Wee joke)

Each new generation of Christian believers had a slightly more 'evolved' story to believe as the passage of time kept falsifying claims of "soon" for the return of Christ.

We know the stories of Jesus and His teachings were constantly changing because they were transmitted orally among the Jewish Messianic Christians until the Bishop of Hieropolis took the trouble to interview and write down current teachings from those who had been taught by disciples and Apostles.

STILL WITHIN THE FIRST CENTURY, the tales were so wild and divergent few Gentile Christians could believe them. The first church historian, Eusebius, thought most of what Papias (the Bishop who conducted the interviews) reported was goofy nincompoopery.

Why do I mention this?

The idea of any necessity of APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION would fly in the face of Jesus coming back 'soon.'

About three to four hundred years after Jesus had disappeared, the idea of 'succession' began to seem more and more necessary for credibility.

Jesus gave Peter the "keys to the Kingdom" and the church used that as pretext for

a 'hand-me-down' situation.

So my direct answer to your question is: A fictional need for apostolic succession has no need of explaining.

In all honesty, it was the Protestant Revolution which brought a do-it-yourself approach to salvation. Martin Luther replaced the idea of an infallible Pope with a new doctrine called SOLA SCRIPTURA. That meant any Joe Blow could simply read scriptures and pray and "presto" God would reveal the 'truth' and the 'meaning' of it all.

This do-it-yourself hubris led to sects springing up like mushrooms in a forest after a spring rain!

Today we have 40 THOUSAND Christian denominations.

Pastor Russell was against sectarianism AND organization. It was his wife, Maria (pronounced Moe-rye-uh) who applied the "faithful and wise servant" parable to her hubby and regarded it as a prophecy fulfilled in the Pastor's ministry.

This Hocus-Pocus is as close as you can get to "apostolic succession" in the JW

teachings. A direct hotline to Jehovah has proved to be a powerful MacGuffin for claims of Authority, hasn't it?

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

Mephis-I don't think you can make the leap to Papias' works being suppressed or deliberately destroyed because they are lost?

_______________

Controversies threatened the peace within Constantine's rule, otherwise he would not have given a rat's pucker about divergent religious squabbles.

There is, pragmatically, no other way to settle differences in religious belief than to resort to proscription (banning.) You can't legislate what people THINK, only what they practice.

There is a fourfold stage echoed in today's Jehovah's Witness Governing Body in its dealings with Internet material by ex-JW's, Apostates, and religious critics.

1. Undermine the person

2. Marginalize the message

3. Spread pejoratives about both

4. Propagandize counterfactually

Eusebius had to deal with the fact Papias was well-regarded for several hundred years. There was nothing he could do retroactively except what he did proceed to do.

In his official Church History, Eusebius undermined Papias' intelligence, ridiculed Papias' writings as legend, myth, and exaggeration, and undermined his reputation.

The absence of copies of so well-attested a work as the 5 volumes of a Bishop who interviewed Apostles, disciples of Apostles and pressed for explanations is, well awfully suspicious to my mind.

Tertullian's work survives--AND FOR THAT REASON--makes the non-survival of Papias all the more suspect. It isn't what Tertullian believed which is important so much as what Papias' 5 volumes report which made it dangerous to uber-orthodoxy.

Papias was too well known to be obliterated entirely, but no so protected from Church hierarchy as to escape 'other means' necessary.

I present only circumstantial arguments, certainly.

Your mileage may vary.

17

How EARLY CHURCH divisions destroyed HISTORY

by TerryWalstrom in

can history really be destroyed?.

would otherwise moral authorities participate in such destruction?.

can we believe there is accuracy in historical documents pertaining to the early christian church?.

TerryWalstrom

DATA DOG:

Are you saying that this one ancient dude's writing was dismissed because he was writing about what the Jewish Xians really believed, and that other Religious "leaders" we're embarrassed because it was nutty??

_________________

Papius was like TV's COLUMBO. Only maybe more like a latter-day apostate detective.

He went after clues and quite determined about it.

The Gentile Christians pretty much found themselves unencumbered by Jewish tradition and ritual. They had no dog in the fight. So, by the time Rome's emperor convoked a happy get-together to iron out discord. . . the rift was too huge.

In a Court of Law, a lot depends on proper evidence.

The Church destroyed whatever it (at the time) disagreed with.

They dismissed one entire side of the argument (Papius report on oral 'evidence' of Jesus' teachings, Apostolic explanations, miracles, etc.)

Why even the Bible canon itself is nothing more than the 'official' opinion of the like-minded, Gentile branch of 4th century Christianity.

Fast forward to the 11th century. What happened?

This rift completely cut Christianity in half. Rome was eventually swallowed up by the Barbarians and along with it the pagan Gentile Christian Vatican.

The Constantinople branch was independent of Rome.

From 476 A.D. to 1453 A.D. the Barbarians and Moslems did not prevail.

IN A NUTSHELL. . .

If the writings of Papius and all the others (non-conforming to Rome) were still extant, wouldn't we have a far more accurate set of data (evidence) to reconstruct ideal Early Christian teachings?

In the 16th Century, the Protestant Revolution removed from the canon, the books it did not agree with. In fact, all through history--those who can use their power and authority to destroy evidence against orthodoxy.

JW's do the same today with taboos against 'Apostate' writings and counter evidence.

See a trend here?

3

JW-PTSD (Also known as the Norman Bates syndrome)

by TerryWalstrom in

the jw religion is sort of like norman bates' mother.

she was supposed to be a proper caretaker, teacher, and role model--but--instead she was a corrupting influence.. even after 'mother' is gone--it is so easy to keep her embalmed in our subconscious like norman did in the fruit cellar.. when pressures weigh heavily on us and we start losing it--well, something like the character and personality of 'mother' may creep into our thinking.

mightn't it?we really have to exert our individuality at all times and rise above.

TerryWalstrom

The JW religion is sort of like Norman Bates' mother.

She was supposed to be a proper caretaker, teacher, and role model--but--instead she was a corrupting influence.

Even after 'Mother' is gone--it is so easy to keep her embalmed in our subconscious like Norman did in the fruit cellar.

When pressures weigh heavily on us and we start losing it--well, something like the character and personality of 'Mother' may creep into our thinking. . . mightn't it?
We really have to exert our individuality at all times and rise above.

We are free. No, really we are---but, only if we can say goodbye to all that.

So my fellow Apostates, take that shabby dress off, remove that silly wig, and put the cutlery back in the drawer. You don't want to have to mop up all that mess in the bathroom later---right?