Just the opposite of Scientology which is building lavish IDEAL ORGs worldwide which nobody fills because it's all a daft PR contrivance.
Who will vanish first, I wonder?
TerryWalstrom
JoinedPosts by TerryWalstrom
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4
kingdom hall construction scheme revealed!
by nowwhat? inhere in notheast ohio a kingdom hall closed and proceeds of the sale will go directly to nearby hall for total remodeling.
so it's obvious any new hall or remodeling will be paid for from funds from sale of any sold kingdom hall.
so basically it's a self funding project fund.
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TerryWalstrom
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182
Words for the Day; please share
by compound complex ingreetings, word lovers:.
in my job, i work with words and wrangle them into shape, well, in a manner of speaking.
one word might be mistaken for another, a word with either a similar or identical sound.
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TerryWalstrom
Thank you!
The other day, I came across this on a Blog. I was gobsmacked!
____________Grammar is “racist,” according to the professional staff, tutors, and the Director of the writing center at the University of Washington at Tacoma.
To combat this perceived racism they promise to “emphasize the importance of rhetorical situations over grammatical ‘correctness.’”
Forget learning how to write correctly, now a “big part” of the work of writing consultants “is to help students become more critical of these unjust language structures as they affect students’ writing and the judgment of that writing.” Instead of teaching students to write well, consultants will “discuss racism and social justice issues openly in productive ways.”
(http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/can-grammar-be-racist-university-washington-thinks-so) -
15
GETTING FIRED VS QUITTING
by TerryWalstrom ingetting fired vs quitting_________________________my specialties in life are great and many, but none more fabulous than the talent i've possessed for getting fired and/or quitting a job.how many jobs and careers i blazed through would spin your head!
suffice it to say, more than you've time or patience to hear.. there is something in my psychology and verbal arsenal too prone toward candid criticism!
i find myself blurting out what i really think before even i can stop myself.i worked for an art gallery owner once who had everything going for him except good sense.
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TerryWalstrom
Someone on Facebook pointed out to me that I hadn't definitely 'splained what the out come was.
So, here it is.
The day the Winner of the sales contest was to be announced, I called in and told the Office Mgr. I wouldn't be coming in.
An hour later, Chuck Mitchell phoned me and asked why I wasn't there.
I told him.
I quit.
"You don't even know who won!"
"Yes, I do. But I know that you have found a way for it to be Mike. There will be some bullshit technicality. You just want me there so you can announce it in front of everybody. So, rather than continue to play your moronic game, I quit."
Mike got the money. -
15
GETTING FIRED VS QUITTING
by TerryWalstrom ingetting fired vs quitting_________________________my specialties in life are great and many, but none more fabulous than the talent i've possessed for getting fired and/or quitting a job.how many jobs and careers i blazed through would spin your head!
suffice it to say, more than you've time or patience to hear.. there is something in my psychology and verbal arsenal too prone toward candid criticism!
i find myself blurting out what i really think before even i can stop myself.i worked for an art gallery owner once who had everything going for him except good sense.
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TerryWalstrom
GETTING FIRED VS QUITTING
_________________________
My specialties in life are great and many, but none more fabulous than the talent I've possessed for getting fired and/or quitting a job.
How many jobs and careers I blazed through would spin your head! Suffice it to say, more than you've time or patience to hear.There is something in my psychology and verbal arsenal too prone toward candid criticism! I find myself blurting out what I really think before even I can stop myself.
I worked for an Art Gallery owner once who had everything going for him except good sense. He drove a Mercedes, lived on the beach, belonged to the Young Millionaire's Club (yes, there was such an enterprise) and he even read self-improvement books, and yet he lacked "common sense" to the extent I got sideways with him over and over again.
For example...
This boss of mine, let's call him "Charles" (because that was his name, although everybody called him Chuck) had contacted a client who was in charge of purchasing Art for the regional headquarters of AAA Auto Association. In the course of wooing this potential client Chuck had over-extended the generosity of the discount.Charles foolishly promised the man a 50% discount on a purchase of 300 or more pieces of Art. The next day, Charles called all Art Associates into his office to break the big news.
I entered the office and sat down.
I was wearing a name tag which I had concocted. It read:T.E.Walstrom and underneath I had printed neatly and professionally, "Art Ass."
Just to the left of that, in a teeny font, I had included (sm).Charles didn't find this amusing and told me so.
This was said while everybody else in the room cracked up.
After the laughter died down, Charles took a deep breath and commenced his wonderful news announcement with these words."I have an idea..."
I immediately interjected: "Beginner's Luck!"
So you see, we were off to a rocky start.
______
Charles told us we had to pull down every piece of art in the Gallery and reframe everything with cheaper materials ASAP because his new client was coming in the next day to select Art for the AAA regional headquarters. The promise of 50% discount would destroy our profit margin unless we acted post haste!The crowd of us groaned. Pulling down hundreds of pieces of Art, dismantling them, rechoosing, cutting and fitting mattes and frames? It was insane!
I blurted, "That's incredibly stupid. Let's just change the price tags instead. We'll double all the prices. There we go, problem solved. Next order of business!"
Charles and the others were stunned. The Boss's mouth worked like a goldfish, soundlessly opening and closing without even a bubble of comment.
________
Although I didn't get fired (my solution was brilliant because it was moronically simple) I was on Chuck's shit-list for awhile.
What ended my (sm) ART ASS. job for Creative Galleries was this.Charles decided to have a sales contest.
The sole purpose of this contest was to humiliate me.
Chuck's best friend (and roommate at the beach) was named Mike. Mike was always the top salesman at the Gallery. Mike was a god. He was German Master Race blonde, with curly hair, sharp handsome features, a baritone voice, blinding smile, and a line of bullshit that could keep a field of alfalfa green all summer.Mike and I were sales rivals. Nobody could beat Mike. Mike was the Terminator; a juggernaut of salesmanship. Of course, there were reasons for this unbroken record of achievement. Charles let him cheat! Charles didn't care how Mike made a sale as long as the sale was made. The rest of us? We had to obey the rules.
For instance, (sm) ART ASS. salesmen had a rule about alternating who approached walk-in customers. It was called the UP system.
If 3 of us were on the sales floor, we took turns. Next UP was not the same salesman twice in a row.
Simple?
Hell no.
Mike would speak to three or four people simultaneously and pretend "he thought" they were in a group together. Like a Disney Tour guide, Mike stopped the crowd in their tracks and "briefed them".
He had a canned speech. The upshot of this speech ended with the command, "Just come to me and I'll see that you get the best price and personal service." Flashing a neon smile and jutting out his manly chin, he was the neighborhood dog peeing on every tree, marking his territory.
______
In the weeks leading up to the Big Contest, Charles had gone out of his way to compare Mike's winning sales totals to my sales totals. This wasn't to encourage competition--it was to incite me to embarrassment in front of the others. BIG MISTAKE.
______
The Big Contest would last one month. Whichever person collected the most $$ would get a special Bonus, $1000 in cash!
I don't know if you've ever seen Alec Baldwin in David Mamet's film, Glengarry Glen Ross. In the film, there is a sales contest for 4 worn out Real Estate agents. Baldwin is a genuine asshole from Corporate headquarters brought in to fire up the crew. He gives a speech which is cold as ice and sharp as razor blades.
The speech Baldwin gives could have come right out of Chuck MItchell's script of sales cliche's.
"ABC.
A, Always,
B, Be,
C, Closing.
Always be closing.
Always be closing.
AIDA. Attention. Interest. Decision. Action...
Attention. Do I have your attention?
Interest. Are you interested? I know you are 'cause it's fuck or walk. You close or you hit the bricks.
Decision. Have you made your decision for Christ?
And action. AIDA. Get out there. You got the prospects coming in, you think they came in to get out of the rain? A guy don't walk on the lot lest he wants to buy. They're sitting out there waiting to give you their money. Are you going to take it? Are you man enough to take it?"
______
Chuck closed his Contest speech with this gem.
"First prize, as I said, is a thousand bucks. There is no 2nd, 3rd. or 4th place prize. Winner takes all."
_____
Mike was a terrific fellow with a big heart. He was a loyal person. He and Chuck had met in the Air Force in Taipei. They were both hustlers when it came to life; especially with women! Mike could "Get any girl" he wanted. Just ask him, he would tell you. Chuck was always interested in business. He wanted to be a millionaire before the age of 30. (Spoiler alert: he succeeded.) But Chuck and Mike had a touch of larceny in their friendship and their bone marrow.The idea behind Creative Galleries was simple. Chuck bought five hundred very cheap oil paintings in Taipei from a slave shop. He paid two bits apiece for small ones, half a buck for medium sizes, and a full dollar for large paintings. These were paintings on canvas.
Have you ever heard of "STARVING ARTISTS"? This was Chuck's dream. Except, the artists were anonymous sweatshop victims of greed and exploitation.
Chuck and Mike got out of the Air Force and moved to Southern California, in Manhattan Beach. Chuck found an abandoned Bakery complex and set up his gallery right across from the Antique Guild.
This was a prime location.
Why?
It was half a mile from MGM STUDIOS.The Antique Guild sold fake antique clones of real antiques and movie stars, actors, and upwardly mobile customers couldn't get enough.
If you walk in or out of the Antique Guild, there was CREATIVE GALLERIES with a large banner, two brightly colored posters on easels just outside, and an eager and smiling Mike Kisgyn standing like a Carnival barker at a fairground hustling Rubes into the Funhouse to be fleeced!
________
Mike and Chuck had parlayed those cheap oil paintings into real money.
How?
They bought a large van and approached the aerospace and credit industry office buildings to set up a special and exclusive STARVING ARTIST sale on weekends.
These employees made a lot of money and were only too happy to buy genuine oil paintings with fascinating biographies of the wannabe artists (which were fictional concoctions) and a piece of worthless paper in the form of a Certificate of Authenticity. (Confederate money was worth more.)
This went on for a year or so until the oil painting market dried up and Chuck and MIke decided to go Legit. They would buy and sell REAL Art. This meant the gallery transitioned from schlocky framed oil paintings to colorful posters in metal frames and limited editon lithographs, etchings, silkscreen works, etc.
Since I had a background as an Artist in an atelier (etching studio) I was hired. That's how this saga had come together.
______
The Big Contest had begun and I had been set up to be trampled into a humble also-ran status. Mike would fatefully grind me into a paste and I would have to learn humility. That was the gist of Chuck's scheme.I knew going in, Mike would cheat.
I worked at Creative Galleries for a year. I knew all of Mike's shady ways, scumbag moves, tawdry double-dealing, finesse tactics, and I was inclined to make counter moves with countermeasures.
_______
Are you curious how an Art salesperson earns a living?
If you sold a piece of Art for full price, you earned a 15% commission, unless you extend a discount, then your commission dropped to 10%.
Simple enough?
No.
Mike was Sales Manager and he had the discretionary power to adjust the amount of discount by a margin greater than the rest of us were allowed.
For example.
If a piece of Art sold for $400 and an interested customer was hesitating and about to walk, we had options to sweeten the deal."Did I mention you can take this Art home and hang it on your wall for a full month and live with it, see how it goes with your decor, invite your friends' comments, see how it works in your everyday environment--and if it doesn't please you fully--RETURN IT for refund without hassle, no questions asked."
If the customer still hesitated, we could add another incentive.
"I'm authorized to deduct ten percent of the sale for special customers. We get many celebrities in here from the studio down the street. I could extend to you the V.I.P. discount IF you make your decision right now. I'll write up this transaction, wrap the piece and deliver it to your home and hang it for you. How's that for service?"
Yes. We actually did that!
Except--MIke was empowered as Sales Manager to offer up to a 50% discount at his discretion.
Half off would remove the profit from the sale--but--the idea was that sometimes snagging a high-profile client (a CEO or person of influence) would lead to future sales.
Mike would surely go crazy with his tremendous advantage! Chuck would let him.
______I knew all this and so did everybody else.
Mike and I had been pitted against each other on purpose by Charles. Mike was Chuck's henchman.Chuck had told me in confidence one day, "You can think of it as a footrace at a track. The starting gun goes off and the runners run as fast as they can. But Mike, he's going to win even if he has to trip you at the start. He'll do anything to win. He hates losing. Losing is impossible to accept for him. That's why he'll always be my number one salesman. I have seen others try who were smarter and smoother, but they all went down in flames."
Yeah yeah. I get it. I get it.
______At the end of 30 days, all the sales slips were totaled by the office accountant. A sale was only counted as a true sale IF the money had been collected in full. Because of the 30-day return policy, no sale was counted as final unless a full month had passed from the date of the sale itself.
Consequently, the Big Contest wouldn't be final until another full month went by.Mike had tallied invoices each day keeping a running total so he knew where he stood. In the last few days of that Contest month, Mike had tried every trick. He offered to give me extra days off "for a job well done." No thanks. He promised if any of my customers came in on my actual days off, he would put my name on any sales which occurred.
I checked the next day.
He always put HIS NAME down and I always protested and he always played dumb and apologized!I got a phone call at the gallery toward the middle of that month from one of Mike's special clients. She was very nice. She had worked with him for several years. She worked for a design firm called DESIGN ONE which was all women. They did interior decoration for businesses. Selecting Art was part of their service. Mike had charmed the owner at first, but over time she had seen through his not-so-subtle larceny. She became fed up with him. Why?
She explained.
"Mike has slept with every one of my employees. He makes promises he never keeps and he's got them all fighting among themselves. I'm sick of it. I want you to be my contact from now on. You have always been professional and give excellent advice. Mike pretends to know what he's doing and yet he doesn't have a clue. We want to continue working with Creative Galleries because the prices and service are better than any other place we've found. Any suggestions?"She told me one other bit of and I did have a suggestion.
In fact, I had a great suggesting.
_________In the last few days of the Big Contest, Mike and I were neck and neck and he was terrified! He was in a panic! He went so far as to intrude on my sales presentations and try to butt in and take over while I was speaking to customers!! Embarrassing himself came easily. I didn't get angry--I just called him out in front of the customer with a jovial tone.
"Oh, don't mind Mike--we're having a sales contest and he's doing so badly I don't blame him for losing his sense of professional courtesy since his reputation is on the line."
_________By the end of the last day, somehow or other, Mike had bested my sales figures by $123. His grin made the moon look dim. He was in a GREAT MOOD strutting around slapping the other employees on the back.
The sales accountant reminded Mike, "It's not over until all the money is final. Don't forget the returns figure into this!"Mike scoffed. He was So-o-o-o-o-o confident of success!
______In our previous conversation, DESIGN ONE had broken the news to me Mike had not spent any time at all following up on a big job. His selection of art for a prepaid installation did NOT meet with the approval of the Project Manager! The art was rejected.
I had explained to the owner of Design One why Mike didn't want to spend any time outside the gallery while the contest was running. Winning mattered more than customer service.
I made a suggestion.
Can you guess what it was?
________Two vans pulled up in front of Creative Galleries. A load of framed art was being returned. The owner asked for me personally to assist in choosing NEW art for the installation.
I humbly complied.
The owner spent an hour in owner Chuck Mitchell's office giving him an earful. She smiled as she left. Her two vans were filled with replacement art. She signed the invoice and paid the difference between the refund and the upsell I had concocted.
The difference?
$124.
_______
After I quit Creative Galleries, I became an independent agent for Design One and several other galleries and decorating businesses. Life became less stressful without the onus of competition at uneven odds.
Being freelance had one huge advantage.
YOU CAN"T BE FIRED and you don't need to quit! -
7
MOVIE REVIEW; SILENCE (A story about Faith, Martyrs, Apostates, and Stupidity)
by TerryWalstrom insilence (movie review)_________.
unless you are a catholic, ex-catholic, an evangelical christian, or a total apostate to your former religion or church--this film is not for you!_____.
martin scorsese has wrought a filmwhich no 2 eyes will see in the same way.. on the surface, it is about the clash (the push back against christianity and priests by buddhists and officials particularly in nagasaki) resulting from catholic evangelism inside japan.
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TerryWalstrom
Martin Scorcese is a seeker after some peace of mind and heart with a view to making 'Spirituality' work somehow in a secular world.
He's the only filmmaker I know asking these questions and the amount of money this film is losing means nobody else will follow :)
I give him credit for what he's put on the plate. I simply disagree that a willingness to die for what you believe is automatically noble. The men who flew jet airliners filled with passengers into the World Trade Center were men willing to die for religious beliefs too.
The naivete' a human must have--the innocence of heart--is more troubling to a mature man (myself) than to a young one. Why? We want to stand for something meaningful, to make our life count when we are young. As we age, we see none of it mattering much in the long run. Or is that too cynical?
Good comments from one and all, btw. Thanks! -
7
MOVIE REVIEW; SILENCE (A story about Faith, Martyrs, Apostates, and Stupidity)
by TerryWalstrom insilence (movie review)_________.
unless you are a catholic, ex-catholic, an evangelical christian, or a total apostate to your former religion or church--this film is not for you!_____.
martin scorsese has wrought a filmwhich no 2 eyes will see in the same way.. on the surface, it is about the clash (the push back against christianity and priests by buddhists and officials particularly in nagasaki) resulting from catholic evangelism inside japan.
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TerryWalstrom
SILENCE (Movie Review)
_________Unless you are a Catholic, ex-Catholic, an evangelical Christian, or a total Apostate to your former religion or church--THIS FILM IS NOT for you!
_____Martin Scorsese has wrought a film
which no 2 eyes will see in the same way.On the surface, it is about the clash (the push back against Christianity and Priests by Buddhists and officials particularly in Nagasaki) resulting from Catholic evangelism inside Japan. Yet--honestly--the movie has reached beyond the history into a No Man's Land of self-sacrifice and lunatic zeal.
We go on a journey and become eyewitnesses to a beautiful display of utter STUPIDITY (i.e. becoming a 'Fool for Christ') and the bottom line reckoning of two men with the actual human cost of spreading YOUR faith to others living inside a foreign way of thinking.
______
SIDEBAR:
As a former Jehovah's Witness, my ears, and eyes perked up from the get-go! (Oh, how we loved to throw ourselves into harm's way to prove our zeal and faith! Oh, how seemingly noble it all was (in our own mind) and Oh how empty it all was of rational meaning!)
______How then, to review this film?
If you are at all familiar with the classic novel HEART of DARKNESS you'll understand the architecture of this plot.Two young priests mentored and converted by an older Priest (Liam Neeson) are vexed to discover a report that he has renounced his faith and has become Apostate after converting thousands of Japanese to Christianity.
The two priests feel called to take a gargantuan journey into Darkness in hostile Nagasaki to find and "save" him from his renunciation.
Why?
They love him...and "saving" is what Christianity does--right?Along the way they discover, much to their horror, dozens of desperate Christianized native Japanese hunted and brutalized into near extinction.
The Japanese Christians are desperate because the man (Neeson) who converted them was captured and tortured and removed--they have no one as Confessor to absolve them of their sins.
______
I won't go into the in's and out's of the journey and people because it's meant to be a learning experience for the Priests and US in the audience.
______What you will witness is harsh, blood-curdling torture along the way whereby Christians are given the choice of STEPPING ON JESUS (a medallion with an iconic image of the Saviour) effectively publicly renouncing Him and Catholic beliefs altogether. If they comply--they go free! Otherwise, the torture continues to the point of being burned alive, drowned, decapitated, or...well, you get the idea, right?
_____
I'll stop right here.
Why?
An intelligent human being should clearly be able to reason their way out of such a situation--so you might think--right?
You go to God in prayer and say, "Hey Lord--I'm loving you all the way but I'm going to pretend to renounce you. You forgave Peter for denying you 3 times, right?"
STOP!
I never did this as a Jehovah's Witness. The Christians in the movie didn't do it either. Why not?
BECAUSE a FOOL doesn't think.
A FOOL follows orders blindly. We listen to our leaders!
_____If you go see this film, you are waiting for the final confrontation between the former mentor (Neeson) and his battered and beleaguered younger self in the form of the young man, Priest trying to save him.
This conversation was like sticking my head inside a giant bell and having the outside struck by a hammer!
It resonated into every cell of my body because I have been both men in my lifetime. I clearly understand the argument from both sides. I have reached the conclusion you will discover at the very end. I already reached this conclusion years ago.
Imagine an Apostate in Jehovah's Witnesses who was former Elder, Pioneer, a Ray Franz sort of fellow sitting down with a younger Elder whom he converted years previously---this is the conversation at the film's climax.Should you spend the time necessary to go see such a movie?
I can't answer for you. I can only say I'm glad I did. -
491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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TerryWalstrom
The Press put Trump center stage. They featured him. They lulled everybody into a false sense of inevitability for Hillary.
The PRESS is deflecting away from their culpability in this role of promoting the spoiler candidate who "couldn't possibly win."
A QUESTION I now ask of everybody:
Are Democrats and Liberals blame gaming instead of soul searching?
If so, is it because they STILL BELIEVE the PRESS was RIGHT?
FACT:
The Democrat Party suffered HUGE LOSSES at every level during President Obama's 8 years in office.
The grand total: a NET LOSS of 1,042 state and federal Democratic posts.
This includes congressional and State legislative seats, governorships and...last but not least...the Presidency itself!
______
THE ABOVE TREND is a strong signal the American voters disapproved of the LEFT significantly. Why weren't Democrats listening?
Why aren't they listening now?A rule of thumb I believe is useful to keep in mind:
The weaker your argument the stronger the "insult" content of your dialogue.
____________
Since Obama took office in January 2009:"Democratic U.S. Senate seats fell from 55 to 46. Their share of the House plummeted from 256 seats to 194. Republicans still control both chambers going into the next session.
Democratic governorships also became a rarity during this eight-year period, slipping from 28 to 16."
(Ballotpedia.org)
____________
The Democrat Party is corrupt and the leadership proved to be losers in their role (see figures above) and yet--they won't fire the losing coaches.
This is weird, is it not?
Corruption is at the heart of the entire problem. Press and Democrat leaders.
Remember what they did to Bernie? -
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Take a look over my shoulder
by Doug Mason ini have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).
i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .
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TerryWalstrom
Doug is an intellectual Detective. His honesty is as capacious as his appetite for historicity.
He has a passion for syncretism.
He collates, sifts, integrates, and forensically deconstructs all things JW to get to an 'essence.'
Whatever that essence turns out to be will be revelatory, informative, and inevitably damning for the Watchtower organization.
There is no greater obstacle to understanding the motivation behind pseudo-Christianity than the formal soteriology of the sects and cults promotional salesmanship vis-a-vis the historic/folkloric mainstream definitions and explanations by comparison.
I look forward to reading what Doug has written. -
23
No Longer a JW Expert But Starting to Figure Out Life
by AllTimeJeff inconsider this an update for those that remember me here.... when i left in 2006, it started a 10 year journey into a new phase.
no more "safety".
some people want to be their own person.
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TerryWalstrom
Good to see you again, A.T. Jeff!
The Prodigal returns. Where's the fatted calf?
Will you settle for a kale salad? -
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A quick Biblical question....
by dubstepped inmy wife and i were talking about how religions claim to be directed by god, yet god never seemed to let any of them know about the danger of sexual predatora to children.
the it hit me, does the bible say anything on the subject?
is there a thou shalt not diddle kids scripture?
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TerryWalstrom
" In ancient Athens and Rome, the modern concept of paedophilia did not exist as such, so the question would be meaningless to an Athenian if you asked him. If by paedophilia you mean the modern psychiatric definition, which pertains to sex with pre-pubescent children, that was considered abnormal and probably as rare as now.
If you use the popular modern definition, which includes all children that cannot be considered adults, so up to 16 or 18 years old, that was not uncommon in Greece and Rome. Flirtation and sex between a bearded man and an unbearded, pubescent boy was acceptable or even common, but only in certain contexts, in certain circles, in certain cities, at certain times. This answer is about sex between grown men and pubescent children.
In Antiquity, unmarried sex usually did not impact a man or a boy's reputation; but girls were supposed to remain virgins until marriage. So attitudes towards sex were tied to marriage for girls. The discrepancy was probably connected with the common situation of a younger girl marrying a (somewhat or much) older man. Another relevant factor was the fact that men can procreate at a late age, while women have a fairly limited timeframe.
Pubescent girls could be married off to adult men, which is still common practice in many parts of the world. Until ca. 1800, a very common minimum age of marriage in Europe was 12 years old. Only after 1800 was this gradually raised in the West. This probably reflected social attitudes. The modern Western boundary of 16 or 18 years (which means after puberty) for marriage is relatively new; while I believe the average age of marriage has been increasing for centuries, 16–18 probably only became universal in the West somewhere during the 20th century.
That doesn't mean girls were mostly married off during puberty in the Middle Ages and Antiquity, but it does mean that marriage was often legally possible at 12. One can imagine that consummation was often (though not always) to happen soon after. Sometimes sons and daughters who were supposed to forge an important alliance were even married at 9 or younger, but then marriage was often only allowed to be consummated later."
(http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/549/pedophilia-in-ancient-greek-and-roman-culture)