Posts by EdenOne

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Let it be clear that I respect your journey into where you are today. Naturally I do not know all the circumstances involved, and I appreciate that you took the time to share them. You followed what appealed to your persona and came to accept that religion is a lie and you replaced it with science in your system. I can respect that; it works for you personally and if that's how the cosmos makes sense to you, who am I to argue against it? We agree that nowadays science does make mankind advance in awe-inducing ways that religion couldn't do, simply because that wasn't the role that religion was supposed to play. However, you have to also agree that historically, religion did more for mankind's ethics and values than science ever did or ever could care to do - again, because that's not the role of science.

My issue is with the arrogance that usually surfaces when someone who presumes to possess the "truth" about anything - be it the scientific "truth" or the religious "truth". In your case, the "scientific truth". But do not mistaken me, I have recently developed the same aversion about those who exhibit the same kind of arrogance for thinking they have "the truth" - and this includes many Jehovah's Witnesses, some of them very close to me. Lately I've neared getting in trouble with close JW family because I just can't take dogmatic statements from the platform anymore. They make me angry, because, if there's something I've learned from being in this forum with you, Cofty, is to ask myself: "How would a visitor who's not mentally inclined to nod to this drivel would think of us if he were to listen to this?".

You asked me about my own journey. I may not have the same ballsy attitude that you had in leaving the WTS when I started to see it for what it really is - just another Christian church, filled with a false sense of its own superiority above everyone else. I don't find it an hypocrisy to stay, at least for the time being. I still believe in the fundamentals, and I have much to lose in terms of family and friends, if I make the wrong moves right now. In many ways, my business life has taught me to not take hasty decisions, and think ahead, and let some time roll. I prioritize my family, my work and my love for music. When my work allows me some time, then I like to focus on examin what my beliefs are. This is where this forum comes very handy - I learn a lot from what I read here, even when I don't participate. Where will it take me, I don't know, time will tell. I don't have a plan.

As for my previous post, I apologize if I was overly harsh on your persona.

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Cofty and his anti-religion, anti-faith, pro-rationalism cruzade carries on ... Sometimes I wonder just how much have you really changed in your core being, from a dogmatic JW to a charismatic born-again, to a zealot atheist scientific orthodox; because the personality trait remains the same. Let's leave out of the equation who you are, since I accept that you're a respectable, intelligent and honored man. That's beside the point.

However, when contemporary scientific orthodox people such as yourself presume they have achieved the ranks of "unquestionable Truth" about the cosmos, you prove yourself to be absolutely no better than the religious orthodoxy that you so ardently advocate against. There's a blatant hipocrisy when you claim that you're not dogmatic, since what you accept as scientific fact generally accepted as valid among the scientific circles can indeed change if new evidence makes a compelling case for a change of interpretation of the reality, but, at the same time, you act as if the present knowledge is a sacred cow that cannot be questioned or challenged by others outside the "priestly" class of the "anointed" scientists, pseudo-scientists and lovers of science such as yourself.

Because the root of the problem lies in a snobbish attitude towards those who don't share your supposed rationalistic enlightenment. In many regards, you still live in the 18th century, in the Age of Enlightenment. I suspect that you would easily become an enlightened absolutist, since you do not tolerate the presence of people who hold faith without giving in to the irresistable call for atheist proselitism. And the urge to simply attempt to crush alternative views of the cosmos with your "shock and awe" argumentative tactics. It gets tiresome after a while to put up with it. Let the believers be believers, Cofty.

You (and others too) often attempt to hold religious leaders - and by extension, those who accept and share into similar beliefs - accountable for actions you judge as 'irrational'. I wonder what kind of punishment would you find adequate to prescribe to believers who commit the thought crime of having a non-rationalistic view of the world. Death, perhaps? A guetto, maybe? How about a concentration camp for believers? Would that suit you to satisfaction? But, in due honesty, can you claim that science hasn't acted irrationally as well?

If we could compile every claim published in respectable science publications since peer review became norm, and see see how many formulations once accepted as "truths" have been revised, amended, and even discarded as new evidence or measurements or social norms have emerged, what would a sensible person conclude? How foolish some accepted "facts" of 150 years ago appear to us today? How foolish will today's scientific zealots such as yourself appear some 200 years from now? I wonder if you're willing to accept that your descendants may well hold you accountable for your errors and your dogmatic vision of the world. If they're smart, they will say about you, what you say about religious discourse of people today: "The very definition of hubris". Your dogmatism will undoubtly be deemed foolish. Perhaps, if they're better than you, they'll forgive your ignorance and arrogance.

Eden

120

In general, the people on this forum have a poor outlook spiritually speaking.

by Stand for Pure Worship in

jw
friends

so i waz reading the august 15 wt study article, elisha saw fiery chariots, do you?

and it made me think about this forum.

if you remember, syria was hunting god's prophet, elisha.

EdenOne

It's a vastly gross overstatement, what the OP did. There are many people in this forum that, albeit dishartened with the course of events within the WTS, being either still in (my case) or out, they still have a love for spiritual things, for God and for Jesus Christ.

Eden

83

Stands For True Worship. I am turning myself in......

by DATA-DOG in

just answer this question in an honest and unbiased way, free from any circuitous reasoning or speculation.

if you do so, i swear to my heavenly father, that i will call the elders tonight and turn myself in.

any active jw may answer this question.

EdenOne

*blink*

must ... stay ... awake ..

*blink*

zzzzz zzzzzzz

83

Stands For True Worship. I am turning myself in......

by DATA-DOG in

just answer this question in an honest and unbiased way, free from any circuitous reasoning or speculation.

if you do so, i swear to my heavenly father, that i will call the elders tonight and turn myself in.

any active jw may answer this question.

EdenOne

*blink*

35

Favorite JW URBAN LEGEND?

by Separation of Powers in

the story of why the new bible has a grey cover (silver sword) moved me to ask you all what your favorite jw urban legend is?.

one of my favorite jw urban legends.

a sister is out in service alone.

EdenOne

I've heard many urban legends over the years ... and believed a few of them, actually.

The "John Denver" one? Yes, but in this case, the artist was Andrea Boccelli, who couldn't sing because the demons were being put at bay by the presence of JW's amongst the audience. Supposedly an announcement was made, JW's called to backstage, their tickets were refunded and the concert went on. This was told to me by a CO, go figure.

Also heard the one about Annie Lennox being in a demon-worship cult.

Also heard that every artist signed to the Atlantis record label had to agree to sing/play under demonic infulences. This included folks like Brian Adams, etc. I know many JW's who threw away their records and stopped playing these songs in wedding receptions because of this urban myth.

Here are two of my favourites:

This one from South Africa: A couple was having marital problems. Someone told them that they should look for demonic influences within their household. They narrow it down to a painting of two horses that someone had offered them as a wedding gift. So the man goes to his backyard and attempts to destroy the paiting and oddly enough, he is unable to. So he decides to take it to a field and burn it. As he sets the painting on fire and prays to Jehovah, two horses rise from the painting and start running away across the field.

This one from unknown origin, but possibly from Africa too: A faithful JW woman had a terrible unbeliever husband who opposed her JW routines, beated and abused her. One day, out of the blue, he offers himself to take her to a meeting. Instead of taking her to a meeting, he takes her to the bushes, where he draws a gun and points it to her head and says he's going to terminate her. The woman is kneeling, eyes closed, and prays to Jehovah. Then she hears sounds as if a sword is being used, and the next thing she knows, her husband is slashed to slices by her side. When the forensic police examined the body, they tell her that the cuts were so perfect that no human hand could have done it.

Eden

83

Stands For True Worship. I am turning myself in......

by DATA-DOG in

just answer this question in an honest and unbiased way, free from any circuitous reasoning or speculation.

if you do so, i swear to my heavenly father, that i will call the elders tonight and turn myself in.

any active jw may answer this question.

EdenOne

*blink*

192

New Homo erectus Skull Shakes up Palaeontology

by cofty in

a fantastic homo erectus skull has been found in georgia - no not our former colony, the one in asia.. it is one of 5 that have been found at a site in dmanisi, it's the first homo erectus to be found outside of africa and it is in excellent condition.

the fossils are dated at 1.8 million years ago and comparisions of the specimens have thrown doubt over the details of human evolution.. it is possible that species previously named as h rudolfensis , h gautengensis , h ergaster and possibly h habilis were actually all h erectus.

the natural variation withing the species may be greater than thought previously.. the "lumpers" and the "splitters" are going to have plenty to argue about for years to come.. note to creationists - please read the article carefully.

EdenOne

Adamah:

(...) the process occurs when some members of the species just happen to be pre-equipped to survive a change in their environment due to possessing the variability that's present in the entire genome. Thus some members are already genetically-gifted to be prepared for the challenge, and the process doesn't require them to be aware of that fact. (...) it actually would be more accurate to think of natural selection as "survival of those who just happen to be better-adapted to survive" since the factor(s) that allows a differential in survival rates has to be present in the population BEFORE the selection pressure is applied, thanks to random mutations.

Well, now here is something VERY useful. One of my main issues with the evolutionary theory (obviously I come from social sciences, I don't come from a biology science background) was precisely the notion that species "adapted themselves" to their environmental challenges, as if they had some sort of conscientiousness that would direct them into doing those morphs, when, in fact, all happens, as I suspected, entirely by accidental causes ... in a way, "happy anomalies" that happen to equip certain species to cope with environmental challenges more successfully than others. Thank you Adamah for explaining that in a way that someone like me can understand.

Eden

20

DubYap - What is it ?

by EdenOne in

jw
friends

from wikidub:.

"dubyap is the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of the very special religious group known as jehovah's witnesses.

as philosopher condillac observed in 1782, "every [religion] requires a special language, because every [religion] has its own ideas ... it seems that one ought to begin by composing this language, but people begin by speaking and writing, and the language remains to be composed.

EdenOne

"spiritual feast" = any meeting that takes longer than 2 hours

"the three enemies" = Satan, the flesh, the world

"system of things" = the world outside the Jehovah's Witnesses ecossystem

"the anointed remnant" = those last few remaining members of the anointed 144.000.

"the Slave" = An abreviation of the "Faithful and Discrete Slave", previously all anointed as a group, now onlythe members of the Governing Body.

"spiritual food" = any publication or public talk originated from the Watchtower Society and its Governing Body.

Eden

83

Stands For True Worship. I am turning myself in......

by DATA-DOG in

just answer this question in an honest and unbiased way, free from any circuitous reasoning or speculation.

if you do so, i swear to my heavenly father, that i will call the elders tonight and turn myself in.

any active jw may answer this question.

EdenOne

You know....the same reasoning that was used in another thread for what constitues 'scientific fact' (I believe Adamah brought that one up) can be used here to justify the "new light" contradicting the "old light". Thread carefully on this one.

Eden