i know that this has been discussed in the past but i wanted to get some fresh opinions.
there are many out there that recognize the "rot" that is in watchtower but still feel that there is a "wholesome" side to it and are trying to bring about change or reform from within.. in 2002 when the rose colored glasses came off for me and i truly started to understand ttatt, i still felt that there was some redemable aspects of the organization.. i felt that russell had some doctrinal things right.
i don't feel like that anymore.
The world population in 2012 is estimated to be 7.12 billion human beings. In 1999, that population was 6 billions. This represents a growth of 18,66%.
The average number of JW publishers in 1999 was 5.65 millions ; In 2012 that number was 7.53 millions. This represents a growth of 33,27%.
In 1999 there was 1 active JW per 1.260 inhabitants; In 2012 there was 1 active JW per 945 inhabitants.
Eden
i know that this has been discussed in the past but i wanted to get some fresh opinions.
there are many out there that recognize the "rot" that is in watchtower but still feel that there is a "wholesome" side to it and are trying to bring about change or reform from within.. in 2002 when the rose colored glasses came off for me and i truly started to understand ttatt, i still felt that there was some redemable aspects of the organization.. i felt that russell had some doctrinal things right.
i don't feel like that anymore.
As of 2011, it took a staggering average of 6488 hours of preaching work to produce a new baptism; in 2012 that escalated to 6506 hours. In 1981, the average was around 3000 hours to produce a new baptism.
I think it's easy to concede that:
a) The preaching work is getting less effective. Why?
b) It's getting harder and harder to produce a convert. Why?
Eden
a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
why do theists not celebrate the amazing discoveries of evolution and discuss how they can reconcile their beliefs with reality?
Some theologists actually do just that. However, most theologists don't have degrees in science, so it is up to scientists to teach science to the masses in simple, exact and neutral ways, that people with average intelligence can grasp. When atheism permeates evolutionism, it repels immediatly theists, causing them to reject scientific evidence. Just as science and theism should grow separatedly, also science and atheism should grow separatedly, that is, atheism not attempting to "own" science. I wonder if atheists can ever do that.
I'll give you an example of the latter: Recently I've read some serious geological research by a scientist [sorry, can't remember the name now] whose findings, properly documented, provide evidence that renders totally plausible the account of the earthquake in Judea at the time of the death of Jesus, as described by the Gospels. On a forum where this was being discussed, every atheist in there jumped on him, basically saying: 'This man isn't a credible scientist because he's a christian theist'. Nevermind the volumes of information that he presented, his career, his doctorships, his academic achievements: He wasn't credible because he was a theist. This is the kind of dogmatism that you wouldn't expect from those who claim to be guided by reason.
Eden
i know that this has been discussed in the past but i wanted to get some fresh opinions.
there are many out there that recognize the "rot" that is in watchtower but still feel that there is a "wholesome" side to it and are trying to bring about change or reform from within.. in 2002 when the rose colored glasses came off for me and i truly started to understand ttatt, i still felt that there was some redemable aspects of the organization.. i felt that russell had some doctrinal things right.
i don't feel like that anymore.
Until the WTS start accepting that we're just another christian church and we don't have any special role in theological history, there won't be any significant reform, only doctrinal adjustments and some strategy updates.
Only when such realization downs upon our Governing Body, then they will be able to humbly repent, apologize, make serious reforms to make this church a more useful, more genuine, more proactive, happier religion who is worthy of Christ. Until then, nothing significant will change.
Eden
i believe they are.
i think it's their biggest fear besides dying at armageddon.. there's a saying that anyone who reads ray franz's books is never the same again.
i think many jw's secretly know that there is information out there that would almost certaintly seriously damage their truth in their religion, and they are terrified of it.. they would rather keep their heads firmly stuck in the sand than even take a peek at critical information that might begin a slippery slope leading to the collapse of their unique worldview.. jw doing their version of the islam prayer:.
No, I mean the notion that 'apostasy' is as dangerous as spiritism, both being Satan's tools - as per WTS ideology.
Eden
a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
Eden scientist do explain this, if people don't read what the scientist say, because "it aint written in the bible", is that our fault?
To a point, yes. Scientists don't stress out that point enough, usually because they are already biased about the beliefs of theists. Popular science for the masses also pays a disservice in this regard. Makes reasonable people suspect that there is an atheistic agenda behind evolutionism. And naturally, religious organizations are quick to fuel that notion too. And mediatic superstar scientists like Dawkins, who are great communicators, when they embrace an anti-theistic cruzade, only cause common folk to imagine that every scientist is like him, and that science is all about killing God.
Eden
i believe they are.
i think it's their biggest fear besides dying at armageddon.. there's a saying that anyone who reads ray franz's books is never the same again.
i think many jw's secretly know that there is information out there that would almost certaintly seriously damage their truth in their religion, and they are terrified of it.. they would rather keep their heads firmly stuck in the sand than even take a peek at critical information that might begin a slippery slope leading to the collapse of their unique worldview.. jw doing their version of the islam prayer:.
Yadda,
Your analysis is quite fair. Many JW's think that talking with 'apostates' or viewing 'apostate material' will somehow put them under some sort of a satanic wicked spell that eventually stumble them and knock their faith out of them. I know that for some JW's, apostasy = spiritism. And truth be told, that is the outcome for many who dare to disobey the WTS policy. However, if one challenges itself to do so, and his faith can survive the test, usually he comes out of it more solid about his theism, albeit undoubtly more sober about his religion.
Eden
a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
around two thirds of Americans beleive in a young earth because they value superstition before science.
If scientists could explain to those people that accepting evolution doesn't imply accepting the inexistence of God, perhaps many of those would be willing to revise their belief. I know that because I've been there. The problem is the "this or that" choice that is usually served to the masses. Are you surprised that many chose to go with superstition? Because science fails to explain the inner experiences of faith that many people have. That massive black hole scares people, and throws them into a trench, where they refuse to investigate any further evidence. Besides, science hasn't got the best track record when it comes to ethics either, so why go with the monster you don't know? Better stick with the one you are familiar with.
Eden
a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
Coftly, maybe you don't realize it, but often you attack bad ideas by implying that the person entertaining them has some kind of defective brain - otherwise, how could a "normal" person entertain such ideas? That's not only bad psychology, makes you come across as an intolerant person.
Eden
a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
QCmbr: We need atheism to free people
Since when theism has stopped people from learning about the universe and how things really work, without resorting to magical explanations? Per your assertion, there would be no theist scientists. Do you think science started with atheism? That's the kind of dogmatic statement that reveals the worst kind of intolerance, and you confuse theism with religion.
The true breaktrhough was when science and theism realized they were about two different fields of knowledge.
Eden
