Posts by EdenOne

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Adamah: so you and all other believers should say, "freedom of choice" instead of "free will".

Yes, that's actually a better wording for what it is.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

This conversation has now become demeaning.

Not at all. (Unless, of course, if you believe that theism is some sort of mental shortcoming). I'm trying to comprehend how an atheist can make questions that belong to the thinking frame of a theist, that's all. And still, you haven't answered my question, you merely averted it.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Cofty:

I don't write it down, start a blog or speak as if anybody else should pay the slightest attention to it.

And yet, here you are, and paying a modicum of your attention to it.

According to you god watched sentient humans suffer for 200 000 years and offered them no help or hope.

Well, according to my hypothetical scenario, that is. But, stop being so Homo-Sapiens-centric for a moment and answer me this: Why would God be more helpful towards the Homo species, more than he would be of a seal or a gazelle or any other animal? What sort of moral obligation should God feel towards the Homo species, any more than he would feel towards a seal or a gazelle or even a bug? Just because we were a tad smarter? I suspect that, in your head, despite your atheism, you still see man as being made in the image of God, and that's why you make that claim that God should treat humans with more dignity that any other animal. Yes, you shouldn't have missed the point that, until Adam and Eve, during those "200.000" years, God didn't have any direct intervention in how the man came about - except being at the very kickstart of the universe.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

s&r:

I'm wondering what homo erectus hunted with his spear been as animals didn't eat eachother until after the 'apple incident'....

Those spears used for cabbage?

You do realise they used fire as they didnt have the enzymes to metabolise raw meat?

What's your point here? In my scenario, God kickstarted the universe and its physical laws, and then evolution took place as any scientist would be apologetic of, until the moment God decided to take interest in the Homo Sapiens.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Cofty: So Abraham had no soul.

In the sense that he didn't possess the spiritual bond of sonship with God, no. He was a "friend of God", but not his son.

Cofty: It must be great to just make stuff up out of nowhere.

I don't claim to have any sort of divine enlightenment or inspiration, so what I write is the result of an inquisitive mind that likes to theorize and speculate. It's a great mental exercise - you should try it sometime. Keeps dementia away in old age, or so I've heard.

Cofty: If you can't see why we value human lives more than the lives of seals I can't help you.

I know why, and I do. My point is that if humans are simply sophisticated animals who came about without God in the process, then why do you ascribe God with the quality of moral monster to beguin with? it makes no sense as an argument.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

braincleaned:

Okay, here's me trying to get my questions organized:

I'll go with your questions and try to the best of my ability to answer them, but remember this is an hypothetical scenario. I'm trying to speculate here within a framework that tries to conciliate evolution with the account we find in Genesis, and the Bible.

Q: What was the purpose of creating then testing these 'new' humans?

The purpose of creating this human couple directly was to generate a human couple fitted with a spiritual bond with God, truly, God's children. (Luke 3:38) In this scenario, they would be the very first Homo Sapiens that enjoyed that status. For some reason, the already existing Homo Sapiens couldn't be "retrofitted" with this spiritual bond, so God decided to make "Homo Sapiens 2.0", fitted with a "soul", that spiritual bond with their maker.

God didn't test these humans. If taken literally, the two trees in the garden of Eden and their fruits were symbolic of gaining access and insight into the spiritual realm [tree of knowledge of good and evil] and the reward of everlasting life in said realm [tree of life]. In time, once Adam and Eve fulfilled their purpose on earth (breeding descendants) and enjoy a long, happy life in the garden of Eden, they would gain access to that spiritual realm and life forever. The commandment that Jehovah gave to the first couple was nothing more that saying: "I get to decide when and if you can eat from these trees. For now, you cannot as much as touch them, otherwise you will die." It wasn't intended as a test, it became a test only when Satan incited Eve to develop the ambition to "be like God". Literally, as James wrote, " each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire." (James 1:14) Satan simply fueled this desire with his ambiguous oracle, but it was Eve's own desire that betrayed her - not God.

Q: Why would an Almighty God create a "slightly improved copy of the existing specimens of their time?"

Well, I guess for the reason I said above - because the existing humans couldn't be "retrofitted" with the sonship with God unless they were directly created by him. The garden of Eden was some sort of a test lab, with a controlled environment, where God experimented if it was feasable to produce "sons of God" out of material beings. He simply chose as subject tests the animals that he considered to be the most intelligent and sophisticated available: the Homo Sapiens. So he went and created two of them from scratch, but accurate copies of the existent ones back then.

Was God's Only Son a corresponding ransom to a "slightly improved copy of the existing specimen of their time", or was he perfect?

God's Only Son [Jesus Christ] was a corresponding ransom (I prefer the term redemption) to the first human "son of God", Adam, not because he had matching "perfection" [Jesus was perfect], but simply because he was ... human AND a son of God, brought about with an identical spiritual bond as Adam had.

If you " don't think they were fully aware of the consequences their disobedience would have", where is God's love for punishing them, and all humanity along with them?

Jehovah gave stern warning and it was frivolously ignored / disobeyed. They fell prey to Satan's rebellious agenda without even realizing they were puppets in a much bigger game that they couldn't possibly understand. In any case, they had been clearly warned. Death came, not as a result of a punishment, but merely as a natural consequence of rejecting their sonship towards God. If they had remained faithful to God, they would have at some point overcome the natural cycle of birth / decay / death by eating from the two trees and be rewarded with everlasting life in the spiritual realm along with the other "sons of God" in the spiritual realm. (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7) Since they lost that spiritual bond with God, they could not henceforth generate children gifted with that spiritual bond. So, Adam and Eve and their descendants became no different than all other Homo Sapiens that existed outside the garden of Eden, and therefore, while God felt an obligation to look after his creations, there was no point in keeping them within the controlled envoronment of the test lab, the garden of Eden, and they were expelled, and forced to mix with the other Homo Sapiens.

Q: how does God's justice work, that the non-adamic descendants are under the curse of Adam's sin?

They were just not gifted with the sonship towards God. There was no "curse" upon the non-adamic humans. That's the "original sin" - the lack of spiritual bond with God that results in death without hope of an afterlife in the spiritual realm. After Adam and Eve, God wanted to extend to all Homo Sapiens the possibility to become his children and gain everlasting life in the spiritual realm. But since it wasn't possible for humans that lacked the said spiritual bond of sonship (the 'soul', if you'd like). Therefore, God felt it was appropriate that his only begotted spiritual son, Jesus, becamethe first human after Eve to be born with the said spiritual bond of sonship, teach others on how could they acquire this bond through faith in his sacrifice, and then offered his own life in sacrifice as a fitting matching life regarding the life that Adam and Eve had lost for them and for their descendants.

I hope I have answered your questions reasonably to your satisfaction.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Back from work.

Cofty: are you saying that unless humans were created, their well being is no more important than that of a seal?

No, that's not what I said. Perhaps i wasn't very clear. Let me try again:

You sit on your sofa and you turn your television on the National Geographic channel. You watch as an orca slaughters a seal; a lion preys on a gazelle; a baby elephant gets trapped in a mud pool and dies; an Orix is killed by a crocodile; a cheetah cub dies of thirst during the dry season.

I ask: Are you a moral monster because you're watching those animals suffer and die and you do absolutely nothing but perhaps feel pitty for them? Are the nat Geo film crew guys moral monsters because they are literally there at the scene, and they do nothing to interfere with nature? Or do you simply consider it the natural course of things, the so called circle of life?

Now, my question to you, then, is: In a scenario of theistic evolution, why on earth would you qualify God as a moral monster if, by your own definition, the Homo Sapiens isn't but a sophisticated animal? Why does it seem so abhorrent to you this notion of a God that watches but doesn't interveine when you, yourself do exactly the same thing when you watch that Nat Geo documentary?

Bottom line, if humans weren't created, if they are nothing but sophisticated animals, why are you ascribing to God the quality of a moral monster, when God doesn't de facto exist in your scenario? That's what i don't get it with your question.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

I'm currently on my IPhone and working for another hour. Will get back at this when i get behind my laptop again.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Your god is beneath my contempt.

That's fine with him. That's why He gave humans free will, so that they could exercise it, as you are now. Yet, no one, even the non-believers, are beyond salvation, which keeps on being extended to everyone through faith in Christ.

Still, you're exercising double standards. If humans are nothing but sophisticated animals (as an atheist would posite), why would God be morally responsable for the fate of humans any more than a sea lion who gets caught by an orca?

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

May I ask where do you get the origin of this idea of "sonship"? And why was a sonship needed?

Luke 3:38 - "Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God."

Romans 8:14 - " For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."

Galatians 3:26 - "For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

Galatians 4:6 - " Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

Eden