marked ...great post, terry.
My sister has a copy of Hislop's "The Two babylons". Apparently in the late 1970's it could be ordered at the counter of the KH as a "special item". that's how she got it back then.
Eden
EdenOne
JoinedPosts by EdenOne
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THE TWO BABYLONS as a template for Watch Tower dishonesty in history
by Terry inproof isn't proof at the watchtower.
"proof" is a reconstruction like frankenstein's monster kept alive by flashes of "new light" made up as needed to revitalize a quivering monstrosity.. at first glimpse it looks like science.
when the smoke clears it is madness and obsession riven with fierce contrarian nincompoopery.. ****.
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Israel National News reports a most amazing story about JWs
by AndersonsInfo inhttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/flash.aspx/288677#.ux9165ao7l9.
court rejects missionary lawsuit against netanya schools for voiding leasethe tel aviv magistrates court has rejected a claim by a missionary group, saying that the school they had been renting space in unlawfully voided their contract , and asking the court to instruct the school to pay nis 108,000 in compensation and mental anguish, as well as legal expenses.. it began when a missionary group, via a non-profit organization called "mitzpe l'yisrael", rented space at the raziel school in netanya to conduct daily afternoon activities.
shortly after signing the rental agreement , the school authorities discovered that the group was, in reality, the notorious missionary sect of "jehovah's witnesses".
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EdenOne
I don't get this:
What they did was illegal? Tactics' ethics aside, how come they don't benefit from the protection of the law? Why should anyone rejoice with that?
Eden
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Bible is inspired of God??????
by Crazyguy inis there anything in the bible that makes you believe that some or all the writings in the bible are inspired from god?.
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EdenOne
With the exception of the prophets, none of the writers of the Bible had any concept that what they were writing was "inspired of God". Not even the NT writers, such as the apostle Paul. The more you investigate the Bible, the more you realize that it's a collection of texts that were gathered together in an anthology, most of then heavily redacted in later times to suit a specific religious agenda. I doubt that God ever intended to produce a "Bible" as we have it today.
For example, ask yourself: What did Paul considered "All Scripture" in his day? Evidence is available that the Christians in the days of Paul were using the OT Septuagint. What is included in the Septuagint? The OT apocrypha. There are several references in the NT to texts in the OT apocrypha. The decision to leave out those texts out of the Jewish Cannon was taken only towards the end of the 1st century; the decision to leave them out of the Christian Cannon was taken only in the 4th century; and the decision to leave them out of the Bible entirely was taken by Martin Luther in the 16th century.
Eden
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The Untold Story of Creation
by mynameislame inposted on behalf of jon p. .
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201403/untold-story-of-creation/.
i don't find the article itself very compelling but it seems to be opening up the possibility that a creative day is not a specific time period.
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EdenOne
I think the account of Creation in Genesis is given in 6 + 1 days only to justify two things:
a) Why the week is divided in 7 days; and
b) Why the sabbath is supposed to be a day of rest (= because God also rested on the 7th day)
That's all there is to it.
I'm not saying that the natural world isn't the product of at least some form of creative work; but just not in the way is portrayed in Genesis.
Eden
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Letting JESUS refute the Watch Tower blood policies
by Terry inletting jesus refute the watch tower blood policies.
the watch tower bible and tract society represent itself as christian.. it represents its theology and policies as direct from jehovah god through his son, jesus christ.. further, the governing body of this corporation interposes itself between the mediator, jesus, and the rest of jehovah's (christian) witnesses for the purpose of "feeding them (spiritual) food at the proper time.. the official word of jesus christ is represented in the watch tower's policy on blood transfusions.. in 1998 this statement was made:.
jehovah's witnesses do not accept whole blood, or major components of blood, namely, red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma.
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EdenOne
Terry, what is the source of the information about the several versions of the book of Acts, and the "Western Text", please? Thanks,
Eden
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New Policy on Inactive Ones?
by Cynisister inthis may have been discussed, but i just recently was told that a km this past year stated that inactive ones are now to be treated as if they are df'd.
is this so?
cynisister.
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EdenOne
Given the organizational emphasis on avoiding like gangrene those who show clear signs of "spiritual illness" [often a term used interchangeably with apostasy or secret sins], thus leaving the matter to the hands of the congregational elders, many decide, on a personal basis - and without any scriptural backing - to start a soft shunning towards the inactive ones. It may not involve total cut off from communication, but certainly it involves restricting social interaction outside the Kingdom Hall to the bare minimum. There comes a time when the "inactive" has been for so long away from the congregation, that the active publishers become unsure if that person is still a JW or it has DF'd or DA'd. When in doubt, the Witnesses tend to avoid the person, to avert any possible awkward situation.
It's a strange world, the JW world.
Eden
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Ancient Gods and the bible.
by Crazyguy inthis seems like a very good site on the subject.
https://sites.google.com/site/yahwehelohiym/an-ancient-view-of-god/one-god-or-many-gods.
one scripture that was mentioned that was very intersting to me was judges 1:19 where is says that the lord or yahweh was with judah and they drove out the mountaineers but could not drive out the people of the lowlands because they had chariots.
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EdenOne
I lean towards the thesis that the pre-exile Israelites were henotheists; they believed in other gods [Elohim], but considered that Yahweh was the Almightly amongst them, and the only one deserving worship. Therefore, they weren't monotheists. More often then not, they resorted to polytheism. Only in post-exile times they adopted a strict monotheism.
Eden
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"No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly..." = Implications
by EdenOne inand they named him obed.
jesse was the father of david the king.
matthew 1:6, 7 - " and jesse the father of king david.
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EdenOne
Bobcat, the problem remains, because Deuteronomy 23:3 extends the ban to those "belonging to them", that is, their progeny. The post-exile authorities Ezra and Neemiah considered that the children of those mixed marriages were also under the ban, regardless if they had an Israelite father and a foreign mother. What caused David to be an exception?
Also: The hebrew term usually translated "forever" doesn't actually mean 'from here to eternity'. Rather, it means, 'from here into the foreseeable future'. So, that ban might well be lifted one day, as it were.
Eden
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"No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly..." = Implications
by EdenOne inand they named him obed.
jesse was the father of david the king.
matthew 1:6, 7 - " and jesse the father of king david.
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EdenOne
That crossed my mind too, Laika ;)
Eden
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"No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly..." = Implications
by EdenOne inand they named him obed.
jesse was the father of david the king.
matthew 1:6, 7 - " and jesse the father of king david.
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EdenOne
Deuteronomy 23:3 - "No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the Lord, even to the tenth generation none belonging to them shall enter the assembly of the Lord for ever, because they did not meet you with bread and with water on the way, when you came forth from Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you".
Now, consider the following.
Ruth 1:3-5 "Now Elimelek, Naomi’s husband, died, and she was left with her two sons. They married Moabite women, one named Orpah and the other Ruth. After they had lived there about ten years, both Mahlon and Kilion also died, and Naomi was left without her two sons and her husband."
So, this Israelite, Mahlon, marries a moabite woman named Ruth. She isn't an Israelite living in the former territory of Moab, otherwise the author of the book of Ruth would made that clear. Instead, it's clear that, before her conversion to the worship of Yahweh, Ruth belongs to the people that had been accursed by Yahweh, the moabites, and used to worship other gods of the land.
Ruth 1:15 - "“Look,” said Naomi, “your sister-in-law is going back to her people and her gods. Go back with her.”
Ruth converts to the worship of Yahweh and travels to Israel with Naomi. The Book of Ruth then tells us that Ruth meets a man named Boaz. He then takes Ruth as his wife.
Ruth 4:9, 10 - "Then Boaz announced to the elders and all the people, “Today you are witnesses that I have bought from Naomi all the property of Elimelek, Kilion and Mahlon. I have also acquired Ruth the Moabite, Mahlon’s widow, as my wife."
The fruit of this marriage was a son named Obed. He came to be the grandfather of King David.
Ruth 4:13-17 - "So Boaz took Ruth and she became his wife. When he made love to her, the Lord enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son. (...) Then Naomi took the child in her arms and cared for him. The women living there said, “Naomi has a son!” And they named him Obed. He was the father of Jesse, the father of David."
As we know, Jesus' geneology is traced back to King David by the writers Matthew and Luke:
Matthew 1:5-16 - "Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse. Jesse was the father of David the king. (...) Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah."
Luke 3:23-32 - "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli (...) the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz (...)"
Now here's the puzzling question:
How come David, the cherished founder of the Israelite-Judean monarchy, was a descendant of a Moabite?
The clear instructions that Yahweh gave concerning the Moabites and their descendants meant that they were to be banned and barred from partaking in the "assembly of the Lord forever". Why was this ignored in the case of David? And why is the Messiah Jesus a descendant from a Moabite, through Ruth and her son Obed?
Some may argue that there was an exception for those who converted to the worship of Yahweh. But why would a Moabite enter the "assembly of the Lord" unless with the intention of worshipping Yahweh? No written concession is made to open an exception for those who convert to Yahwism. It seems clear that the ban of the Moabites was based on ethnicy rather than religious affiliations.
Some others may argue that this only applied to male Moabites, and therefore, Ruth, the moabite female, wasn't included in the ban. But this doesn't stand either, since, in post-exilic times, the Jew men who married women from Moab were severely reprimanded:
Neemiah 13:23-27 - "In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women ofAshdod, Ammon, and Moab...I contended with them and CURSED THEM and beat some of them and pulled out their hair; and I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, "You shall not give your daughters to their sons or for yourselves...Shall we do all thisgreat evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?" (...)"
Ezra 10:2, 3, 44 - "We have been unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women from the peoples around us (...) Now let us make a covenant before our God to send away all these women and their children, in accordance with the counsel of my lord and of those who fear the commands of our God. Let it be done according to the Law. (...) All these had married foreign women, and some of them had children by these wives."
Notice that, in accordance with the "commands of our God" [such as the ones found in Deuteronomy 23:3 regarding the foreign women of Moab], not only the ethnical Moabites were to be cast out, but also their mixed progeny. By this token, Obed should have been ousted, along with his mother Ruth. Jesse and David too.
Question is:
Why is that King David and the Messiah Jesus descend from an "accursed" Moabite, Ruth, who should have never been allowed into God's assembly - not her, nor any of her mixed progeny with an Israelite?
In the same vein, also consider that there was Ammonite mixed blood in the ancestry of Jesus:
Matthew 1:6, 7 - " and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife, Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa".
Now, we are informed in 1 Kings 14:21, 22: "Now Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah...His mother's name was Naamah the Ammonitess."
Eden