EdenOne

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Posts by EdenOne

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  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

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  EdenOne

  Deities are undefined

  I see you're also perfectly capable of bag arguments. No they're not. They're often vaguely defined, that's entirely different. Several common traits of deities: Superhuman, immaterial, intelligent, powerful beings who somehow take interest in human affairs and are capable of influence them. That's certainly vague, but not "undefined".

  So now you're going to try to tell me what I believe or don't and why? Really?

  The fact that you identify yourself as atheist and you think it is because it meets certain criteria doesn't automatically makes the definition of atheism logically sound. What you believe or don't believe isn't in discussion here.

  It's like saying "you don't have any money, therefore you have money!"

  False analogy. I meant nothing like that.

  Rational people SHOULD be offended when people make bad arguments about others feelings and ideas and assert knowledge they cannot possibly have.

  You're contradicting your own statement. You said that, in spite of not having evidence that I wasn't a zebra, you could confidently know that I wasn't a zebra. By the same logic, I could assert knowledge about others feelings and ideas. You are making yourself a spokesperson for the entire atheist group, something you cannot possibly do. Your logic is flawed here. In any case, it's besides the point. I'm just questioning the logical soundness of the definition of atheism as a "lack of belief due to the lack of evidence for the existence of god". That lack of evidence is grounds for agnosticism. The lack of belief is in itself a belief that grounds itself on the lack of knowledge. What you define yourself as being, is irrelevant to this discussion.

  Eden
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  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Outlaw:

  Richard Dawkins made more money out of god than I ever did ... that's a fact.

  Eden
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Simply put, a belief defines an idea or principle which we judge to be true.

  To a theist, "belief" in a deity means that he judges his thoughts and images and stories about God to be true. The lack of belief of the atheist comes from the fact that the doesn't share the same judgement as the theist. But his lack of belief isn't the direct result of the lack of evidence. That lack of evidence results in lack of knowledge. Only then, based on the lack of knowledge, he judges that absence of knowledge as grounds to not share the belief of the theist. But that judgement he makes is in itself a belief.

  What I'm trying to say is that there seems to be an illogical proposition to say that lack of belief is a direct consequence of lack of evidence. The logical consequence of lack of evidence is lack of knowledge. The direct consequence of lack of evidence about the existence of God is agnosticism.

  First, please refrain from commenting on things you cannot possibly know, such as how "most" atheists feel when someone makes a bag argument.

  Ok, I'll rephrase: Most atheists that I have come in contact with ....
  

  Eden
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Viviane:

  Precisely, the claims that most theists make about their deities - and lets now use the most common sense of the word deity - is that they are ultimately immaterial in nature. That makes it impossible to acquire evidence about them. Of course, common sense tells us that it's easy to fabricate "evidence", and built a system of belief based on deception. But in any case, even if we can call BS on these religious systems, and be pretty confident that no god is going to send us to hell for it, it's still a "belief" and not "knowledge". Now most atheists get very offended when theists say that atheism is a "belief" and argue that atheism is simply a lack of belief based on the lack of evidence. But what I see here is that the lack of belief in this case is in itself a form of belief. Because what you get from lack of evidence is lack of knowledge. And those who claim lack of knowledge are agnostics, not atheists.

  Eden
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Ruby:

  edenOne, help me out, what didn't you understand?

  The part about cognitive behavioral therapy of an ex-jw. The phrasing is confusing to me, and I din't get what you were trying to convey.

  Eden
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Cofty: You just did.

  Ruby: I didn't understand what you were trying to say.

  Eden
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  My initial question is what exactly is "belief", especially when used in the context of the definition of atheism - "lack of belief in the existence of God or deities".

  Since the lack of belief is said to be supported on the lack of evidence, my perplexity is this: Lack of evidence leads to lack of knowledge. [You may call this a "major unfounded assertion", but you haven't proven me wrong.] I can only know something because I have evidence about it. If I don't have evidence about it, best I can do is to say that I don't know, or make an educated guess. Ergo, lack of evidence leads to lack of knowledge.

  What is more logically sound, then:

  "There's no evidence, therefore, I don't know"; or

  "There's no evidence, therefore, I lack belief?"

  Eden
• 
  87

  Why people don't believe in God

  by pressman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  do you want to know why i think people don't believe in god?

  well i believe people don't want to believe in god because they are scared.

  they know that if they finally do gorge the confidence to believe in him, he might discipline them for their skepticism.

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  EdenOne

  you just need to believe

  If God is at least half all-powerful, for sure he could find a way to provide unequivocal EVIDENCE of his existence, so that we don't have to rely on belief, but in true knowledge. Why would God require us to believe, when it would be so easy to let us know? There's no virtue of faith over knowledge that I can think of.

  Alas, we're still waiting.

  Eden
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  From Merriam-Webster:

  "Belief"
  a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
  a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
  a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
  a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
  something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
  conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

  Notice that "belief" is characterized as a feeling, state of mind, conviction. Never as knowledge.

  My question is: If lack of evidence cannot produce positive knowledge, on what grounds is the lack of belief of an atheist more sound than the belief of a theist?

  That's a ridiculous platitude that makes a major unfounded assumption.

  I stand corrected if you can prove me that lack of evidence can produce positive knowledge.

  Eden
  
  
  

  
  
  
  
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Viviane: I lack belief due to lack of evidence.

  Lack of evidence leads to lack of knowledge.

  In turn, lack of knowledge may lead to lack of belief, but not necessarily. Some people believe - or don't believe - irrespective of knowledge to justify such beliefs.

  Eden