Posts by EdenOne

18

What were the Bible Students expecting in 1914, after all?

by EdenOne in

skimming through old watch towers, i encountered this statements on the 1914 january 1st edition of the watch tower (vol.

xxxv, p.5373), in the article "views from the watchtower":.

"so far as our judgement goes, the year 1914 is the last of what the bible terms "gentile times" [...] the end of their "times" marks the date for the beginning of messias' kingdom, which the bible declares is to be ushered in with a great time of trouble, just such as we see impending.

EdenOne

Ok, I'm getting to the point I'm trying to make (I think):

TD, the author of the paper you linked to, says:

"It can be clearly seen from the period literature that the Witnesses' doctrine of God's kingdom as a heavenly government establishment in 1914 AD did not begin to emerge until the year 1920 and did not reach its final form until the year 1925." - page 42

I think that the statement found at the Watch Tower of May 1, 1914 proves that this isn't accurate. Russell did teach that God's kingdom as a heavenly, invisible government BEFORE October 1914, and not only after 1918/1920:

"Christ and the church have only been the incipient kingdom, an embryotic kingdom - the kingdom class, preparing for investiture of authority in God's due time, which we believe is now near. The kingdom is to be a spiritual one, and hence its rulers will be as invisible as are the angels and the heavenly Father. [...] During the Millennium, the Kingdom authority and power of God through Christ and the church will be exercised amongst men; and yet they will not see it with the natural eye, but merely with the eyes of their understanding."

Eden

18

What were the Bible Students expecting in 1914, after all?

by EdenOne in

skimming through old watch towers, i encountered this statements on the 1914 january 1st edition of the watch tower (vol.

xxxv, p.5373), in the article "views from the watchtower":.

"so far as our judgement goes, the year 1914 is the last of what the bible terms "gentile times" [...] the end of their "times" marks the date for the beginning of messias' kingdom, which the bible declares is to be ushered in with a great time of trouble, just such as we see impending.

EdenOne

TD Thanks for the link to that document. Very interesting.

Zion's Watchtower, August 1, 1904, p. 229:

"April, 1878, marks the date of the establishment of the kingdom. [...] Thus the establishment of the kingdom commenced [...] the kingdom will be fully established or "set up" by October A.D., 1914; for that date closes the forty years of "harvest" and accomplishes its design."

I didn't realize before that Russell taught that there was a 40-year period (well, in fact 36; 40 is counted from the beginning of the parousia in 1874) between the commencement and the finalizing of the establishment of the kingdom. This was referred to as the "Day of Vengeance". (How can a divine enterprise take 40 years to be "set-up" is beyond me). Therefore, in his view both 1878 AND 1914 are dates of the establishment of the kingdom. Question remains: in 1914, visibly or invisibly?

Eden

18

What were the Bible Students expecting in 1914, after all?

by EdenOne in

skimming through old watch towers, i encountered this statements on the 1914 january 1st edition of the watch tower (vol.

xxxv, p.5373), in the article "views from the watchtower":.

"so far as our judgement goes, the year 1914 is the last of what the bible terms "gentile times" [...] the end of their "times" marks the date for the beginning of messias' kingdom, which the bible declares is to be ushered in with a great time of trouble, just such as we see impending.

EdenOne

Terry, we all know that Franz was a liar when it suited him. He could well tell a highly fictionalized story to suit his chosen narrative.

What I'm saying is that we may have to adjust the criticism we level at Russell regarding what he said about 1914 BEFORE it happened. We could be looking at yet another flip-flop. Or a possible explanation for the justification that the WTS came up with AFTER the passage of 1914/1915 didn't bring the expected Armageddon.They could simply be using Russell's excuses.

What I'm struggling to understand here is this: Russell taught that Christ had invisibly been empowered in the Kingdom invisibly in 1878. Now, in May 1914, he seemingly says that this is a future event. Am I right in my reading? Then this means that after Russell's death there was a reversal of understanding back into 1878, and then again another reversal later on back to 1914.

Eden

18

What were the Bible Students expecting in 1914, after all?

by EdenOne in

skimming through old watch towers, i encountered this statements on the 1914 january 1st edition of the watch tower (vol.

xxxv, p.5373), in the article "views from the watchtower":.

"so far as our judgement goes, the year 1914 is the last of what the bible terms "gentile times" [...] the end of their "times" marks the date for the beginning of messias' kingdom, which the bible declares is to be ushered in with a great time of trouble, just such as we see impending.

EdenOne

Again, look at this passage, now on the article: "Messiah's Kingdom To Be Invisible" (May 1, 1914, 5455):

"Christ and the church have only been the incipient kingdom, an embryotic kingdom - the kingdom class, preparing for investiture of authority in God's due time, which we believe is now near. The kingdom is to be a spiritual one, and hence its rulers will be as invisible as are the angels and the heavenly Father. [...] During the Millennium, the Kingdom authority and power of God through Christ and the church will be exercised amongst men; and yet they will not see it with the natural eye, but merely with the eyes of their understanding."

What I'm puzzled about is that the spiritualization of God's Kingdom was already being taught by Russell BEFORE the failed expectations regarding the "end of the gentile times", expected to happen in October 1914 or 1915.

Eden

18

What were the Bible Students expecting in 1914, after all?

by EdenOne in

skimming through old watch towers, i encountered this statements on the 1914 january 1st edition of the watch tower (vol.

xxxv, p.5373), in the article "views from the watchtower":.

"so far as our judgement goes, the year 1914 is the last of what the bible terms "gentile times" [...] the end of their "times" marks the date for the beginning of messias' kingdom, which the bible declares is to be ushered in with a great time of trouble, just such as we see impending.

EdenOne

Thanks k99.

It seems to me that perhaps JWFacts may want to look again at some of this info, for the sake of completeness / accuracy. On the same Watch Tower (January 1st, 1914), under the article "The Days Are At Hand", Russell considers the possibility that the Bible Student's expectations may be wrong:

"If October, 1915, should pass, and we should find ourselves still here and matters going on very much as they are at present, and the world apparently making progress in the way of settling disputes, and there were no time of trouble in sight, and the nominal church were not yet federated, etc., we would say that evidently we have been out somewhere in our reckoning. In that event we would look over the prophecies further, to see if we could find an error. And then we would think, Have we been expecting the wrong thing at the right time? The Lord’s will might permit this."

It seems obvious that Russell, still ignorant of the fact that WWI would erupt in Europe on the following August, was already toning down his expectations and admitting that he could, after all, be completely wrong about them. This would help to explain why the Bible Students were somewhat prepared to come up with alternative explanations for the failed expectations regarding 1914/1915 and wouldn't see themselves and Pastor Russell as "false prophets".

Eden

18

What were the Bible Students expecting in 1914, after all?

by EdenOne in

skimming through old watch towers, i encountered this statements on the 1914 january 1st edition of the watch tower (vol.

xxxv, p.5373), in the article "views from the watchtower":.

"so far as our judgement goes, the year 1914 is the last of what the bible terms "gentile times" [...] the end of their "times" marks the date for the beginning of messias' kingdom, which the bible declares is to be ushered in with a great time of trouble, just such as we see impending.

EdenOne

Skimming through old Watch Towers, I encountered these statements on the 1914 January 1st edition of the Watch Tower (Vol. XXXV, p.5373), in the article "Views From The Watchtower":

"So far as our judgement goes, the Year 1914 is the last of what the Bible terms "Gentile Times" [...] The end of their "times" marks the date for the beginning of Messias' Kingdom, which the Bible declares is to be ushered in with a great time of trouble, just such as we see impending. [...] We believe that the Parousia of our Redeemer took place thirty-nine years ago [Ed, hence, 1874) and that he is the potent factor in all the affairs of his church, and the supervisor now of the conditions which will shortly lead up to the establishment of his own kingdom and the binding of Satan [...]"

I'm a bit perplexed with the above. Unless this is a later, redacted, reprint (a possibility worth checking; someone please weigh in) it seems that, before October 1st 1914, Russell was teaching that the kingdom would be established that year and that that year would mark the beginning and not the end of the great tribulation? Didn't Russell teach that the Kingdom was established in 1878 and 1914 would mark the end of the great tribulation? Or was he expecting that in 1914 the Kingdom would be *visibly* established on planet earth, having been established in heavens in 1878? I'm a bit confused.

I want to be 100% accurate when I write about what were exactly Russell's predictions and expectations about 1914.

Eden

5

Jehovah's Witnesses and Education - old foes

by EdenOne in

i was skimming through old numbers of the watchtower and came across this interesting bit.

under the headline "ungodliness and discontent", the article claims:.

"[...] we have more than once called attention to in these columns, namely, that the spread of education, and increase of wealth, are not tending to make mankind happier, holier or more content, but rather the reverse.

EdenOne

I was skimming through old numbers of the Watchtower and came across this interesting bit. Under the headline "Ungodliness and Discontent", the article claims:

"[...] we have more than once called attention to in these columns, namely, that the spread of education, and increase of wealth, are not tending to make mankind happier, holier or more content, but rather the reverse." w10 March 1, p. 84-85

Then it presents an argument based on a supposed correlation between suicide rates among educated and non-educated people to conclude that education makes people unhappy. It's a long enmity between the Watch Tower and education, isn't it?

Eden

14

Old Watchtower publications in improved format

by Watchtower-Free in

the website avoidjw.org has been working to improve all the older documents.

right now, all the zion's watch towers from 1880 - 1908 and the watch towers from 1909 to 1920 have been improved drastically.

i'm currently working on updating pdfs from 1921 to 1949. this updating will include the following features:1. reduced file sizes.2.

EdenOne

Amazing work. Many thanks to whomever put the effort and skills to do this.

Eden

18

The Divine Son of God, God Incarnate, Lord, Redeemer, and Saviour of the World

by Doug Mason in

before jesus was born or even if he had never existed—another human being was already proclaimed son of god and, indeed, god incarnate within the same first common-era century and within the same mediterranean world.

in fact, almost all the sacred terms and solemn titles that we might think of as christian creations or even pauline inventions were already associated with caesar augustus, the first undisputed ruler of the roman empire, from 31 bce to 14 ce.. augustus was divine, son of god, god, and god from god.

he was lord, liberator, redeemer, and savior of the world—not just of italy or the mediterranean, mind you, but of the entire inhabited earth.

EdenOne

The way I see it, it seems that Pauline christians shaped Christianity in a way that was pallatable to the roman world; in that effort, they assimilated elements from other two popular cults of the day: mithrainism and the cult of the emperor. However, they ended up competing and clashing with the latter.

Eden

77

New commentary on revelation coming up?

by EdenOne in

i heard through the grapevine about a forthcoming book:.

together through the great tribulation - come to jehovah's mountain.

still awaiting solid confirmation though.

EdenOne

Doug Mason - The Apoclypse that made it into the NT is the product of the Jewish section of the Christian movement

Doug, I'm interested in this bit. Can you reference some scholarly work where this topic is discussed at lenght? Is this "jewish-christian" section the same that was headed by James The Just and the apostles in Jerusalem? The Ebionites?

Eden