EdenOne

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Posts by EdenOne

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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  Vidiot, the Portuguese constitution adopted the principles of the UN DOHR, which means they carry the same weight as the Constitution itself in our internal normative system. The Religious Freedom Act 16/2001 also explicitly remits to the Constitution and the DOHR. At least in theory, breaching those rights is in fact breaking the law. That's not the foundation of this petition, but is an accessory argument to the case in point.
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  • Again, you don't point to any actual law. When you want to do something legal, you need more than "someone was mean to me". Things can be unfair but not illegal.
  • You start by quoting vague human rights 'laws'
  • If you can't argue your case on an ex-JW forum then what are you supposed to do when you come up against real opposition to your claims?

  Again, this only shows that you haven't bothered to read the petition, otherwise you wouldn't be making these claims. The breaches of the law are pointed there, and each article offended, and how, and the "hate speech" and "discriminatory instructions" are quoted there. If you don't bother to read the text of the petition, I certainly won't bother to discuss this with you.

  You need to prove they do those things. I think you would have a hard time.

  It's actually pretty easy to prove. All it takes is their literature and their confidential letters. And testimonials, including mine and my family, notwithstanding many others that I can produce.

  After that you need to prove how the enforce it against people's will.

  Threatening to disfellowship and shun someone if that person refuses to shun a disfellowshipped / disassociated person - I call that enforcing the policy against people's will. It's plain to see on the Shepherd the Flock of God elder's manual.
  
  

  show me the court cases brought forward under that law.

  This would be a case that would break new ground.

  If one doesn't bother to challenge the "status quo", nothing will change. Watchtower used to hide behind the "confession privilege" to claim that elders weren't allowed to report to the authorities the complaints of child sex abuse that they became aware of. Until someone challenged that in court. And now the Watchtower cannot use that argument anymore. But someone had to challenge that status quo. The Watchtower will have to stop hiding behind the "religious freedom" to spew hate speech and teach / enforce discrimination and social ostracization. It takes someone to challenge that status quo. If my angle doesn't work, so be it. Someone else will find another. And another. And another. Until the Watchtower cannot hide anymore and concedes to change via some "new light". Who cares. As long as it changes.

  If you think that a more well supported issue that would be far easier and straightforward to legislate isn't more likely to get political attention ahead of yours then I think you are being unrealistic.

  Realistically, that's the only real risk at stake here. That this isn't considered a priority; especially because it might strike a nerve with the RCC. Still, it's a risk worth taking.

  You still haven't made one reasonable argument as to why isn't worth trying.
  
  
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  Your topic headline is "Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness" but then you claim "The petition does NOT seek to ban the Jehovah's Witness as a whole in the country". That seems to be contradictory. What exactly is it meant to do? What is the outcome that would have you say "yes, we did it, we were successful!"

  Have you bothered to read the actual text of the petition, Simon?

  The reason to ask for the dissolving of the "charity" "not-for-profit" corporation that represents the Jehovah's Witnesses in Portugal is because there isn't any other provision in the Portuguese law to sanction a religious community for violations of human rights. Do you deny that institutionally enforced shunning for religious reasons is a violation of human rights? The practical consequences of this termination are ZERO for the individual witnesses; their constitutional rights to gather for worship meetings isn't touched, as isn't touched their right to share their faith by preaching. The practical consequences for the CORPORATION of the Jehovah's Witnesses? They might lose their status as an officially recognized religion, and therefore, lose: a) tax exemptions b) the right to celebrate weddings without a civil ceremony; c) the right to be heard in certain city planning situations regarding their places of worship; d) the right to access hospitals and prisons as "religious ministers".

  The petition also asks for two other things: a) For the legislators to amend the Religious Freedom Act 16/2001, so that it includes a proper sanctions provision for religious communities who engage in hate speech and discrimination; and b) that the leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses community in Portugal are summoned to the Parliament and, under the mediation of the Parliament meet with the victims of their shunning policy, and negotiate changes in their policies to alleviate the suffering of the victims.

  Then there is the question of admissibility: If the petition is considered admissible by the Parliament and the petitioners are granted an audience (even if we don't get 1000 votes) and we get the opportunity to explain what the shunning issue is about, so that the legislators become aware of this problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

  If ANY of these four situations takes place, yes I would consider the petition a success.

  You mention Laws of Religious Freedom. What are they exactly? Have you tried to find those laws? There are declarations which sound very nice but are worth diddly squat and there are treaties that are often the basis for laws being enacted in the countries that sign up to them - do you have the actual laws that you think they contravene?

  Yes, and that is what a good portion of the petition is about: detailing how the institutionally enforced shunning and discrimination breaches the Law. If you had bothered to read the petition, you wouldn't be asking that question. I know, it's 36 pages long and perhaps you can't be bothered to attempt to translate it with Chrome or Firefox and then actually reading it. Some other people did just that and signed for it though. Go figure.

  Take a look around at the world. There are people being executed in some countries for their religion. That is the sort of thing that the laws are there for and even THEY don't count for much. The idea that someone's internal family issues would take precedence over genuine abuses is rather sick IMO.

  This petition does not concern with the rest of the world; it concerns my country, which is a member State of the European Community, where executions for religious reasons do not exist, and thankfully religions don't have the leeway they have in north America, thankfully. Your point is moot. And, again, read the petition: The individual right to associate or not associate with someone (even a family member) isn't being questioned, as long as it's exercised free from moral harassment and coercion. What is being challenged is the right of an institution that benefits from legal recognition and tax exemptions from the State to teach and enforce discrimination based on religious grounds.

  Everyone is free to leave at any time. The JWs don't put an embargo round your house and prevent people going there. Whether their members chose to stay or chose to leave is up to those individuals and there is nothing that you can do to get what you want without trampling on a whole set of established laws around the world and I'm sorry, it just ain't gonna happen, not for this and not for other things 1,000 times more important.

  I have to strongly disagree with you. I mean, really, Simon?? You're doing the Watchtower Society a favor with that argument. Real freedom means to do (or not do) something without being unduly conditioned by the fear of morally wrong, unreasonable and unwarranted consequences. If Jehovah's Witnesses would be able to leave their religion without facing the dire consequences of being perpetually shunned, then I would agree with you. But both you and I know that's not how it works. That's not how cults operate.

  The 'irrelevancy argument' that you brought up doesn't make sense either. As an example: If your business partner would screw you up, would you not take legal action just because there are a gazillion more important issues in the world?

  There are Treaties on equal pay for women - with all the current hullabaloo about gender pay inequality, where are those court cases? Or Treaties about equal treatment of race - again, how's that all working out? Why do you imagine something of practically zero interest to the majority of people will jump to prime importance?

  That may be the scenario in north America. It's not the case in Europe, where matters like such are taken a lot more seriously. And if no one does nothing, then nothing will ever change. We have to start somewhere.

  No one cares

  If everyone would have your attitude, then we would still live in a society where slavery would be acceptable, women's rights wouldn't exist, and burning witches would be a thing, because .... no one would care.
  

  Truth is: YOU don't care. Others do, though. Your criticism has been duly noted.
  
  
  
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  352 signatures
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  smiddy3
  I`m sorry if this question has been answered before Eden One ,have you also sought out other ex JW sites to get people to sign this petition ?

  Yes, on reddit and also on the portuguese ex-JW forum. Some reddit users also shared the petition to other european reddits.

  Portugal is a small country with 50.000 witnesses and a tradition of poor civic participation. If the petition was about soccer I would get 10.000 signatures, but human rights? Mehhh

  Interestingly at the portuguese forum, we have received threats from Watchtower apologists, threatening us with death and calling us insignificant demon-controlled worms for challenging Jehovah’s organization. How loving these people are....
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  search
  Are there are time periods involved?

  The law of petition doesn’t specify any time interval for gathering signatures. Because the date of March 9th is very symbolic (40th aniversary of the adoption by Portugal of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), I am inclined to submit the petition on that date. But we’ll see how the collection of signatures goes. No pressure.
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  It's the case of the proverbial mouse standing against the elephant, JD.
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  I think it's an interesting civilizational discussion to have, to say the least.

  I feel strongly that institutionalized shunning and discrimination cannot be allowed to a religious entity, especially when that is used as a form of punishment that extends beyond the boundaries of the membership to said institution, which is the case in question. And it causes real suffering and pain to real people, both in and out of the religious community.

  I recognize the right to excommunicate someone, in the sense of ceasing communion or spiritual fellowship; also, it's not my business to decide how that is implemented, albeit I could argue for hours how the Bible and the history of the early christian church doesn't grant shunning as defined by the Governing Body. But what goes beyond that termination of spiritual fellowship, in the way we know JW's do, it's simply not acceptable in this 21st century. Change must come.
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  John Davies dixit :)

  But, there's more:

  "Article 21

  Hearing of petitioners

  1. The hearing of the petitioners during the examination and investigation shall be mandatory before the parliamentary committee or its delegation whenever the petition is signed by more than 1000 citizens.

  2. The hearing may also be decided by the parliamentary committee on meritorious grounds, duly substantiated, having regard, in particular, to the scope of the interests concerned, their social, economic or cultural importance and the gravity of the situation which is the subject of the application."

  This is also what we're aiming for.

  325 signatures.
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  127

  PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

  the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

  the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

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  EdenOne

  Out of curiosity, then what? - Morpheus

  Then, with 1000 signatures, the petition can not be dismissed on the basis of inadmissibility and the petitioner must be given an audience at the parliament to present the case. The petition also gets published in the official "Diário da República" paper, where all the laws are also published.

  296 signatures