Posts by EdenOne

20

Help needed: Elders should contact authorities immediately if KH are damaged?

by EdenOne in

hello.. i remember some time ago someone brought up a letter to congregations or some other similar instruction, instructing the elders to "contact the authorities immediately" if something like a robbery or trouble came upon a kingdom hall.. does anyone remember that?

and what was the source of that instruction please?

.

EdenOne

Yes that's what I intend to establish, this different standard of action towards a crime that is known by the elders to have taken place. Still, I need the source ...

20

Help needed: Elders should contact authorities immediately if KH are damaged?

by EdenOne in

hello.. i remember some time ago someone brought up a letter to congregations or some other similar instruction, instructing the elders to "contact the authorities immediately" if something like a robbery or trouble came upon a kingdom hall.. does anyone remember that?

and what was the source of that instruction please?

.

EdenOne

Hello.

I remember some time ago someone brought up a letter to congregations or some other similar instruction, instructing the elders to "contact the authorities immediately" if something like a robbery or trouble came upon a Kingdom Hall.

Does anyone remember that? And what was the source of that instruction please?

Much appreciated.

3

WT intervenes in Ethiopian Church case before Supreme Court of Canada to defend 2018 precedent re excommunication

by Corney in

two and a half years ago, the supreme court of canada has ruled unanimously in highwood congregation of jehovah’s witnesses (judicial committee) v. wall that membership decisions of religious associations are not reviewable or justiciable by courts, absent an underlying legal right.

multiple religious and religiously-affiliated organizations (catholic, protestant, mormon, sikh, muslim) and secular advocacy groups (like canadian constitution foundation and british columbia civil liberties association) intervened in that important case, all - if i remember it correctly - supporting the position of the org.

that mostly correct judgment has been widely accepted by lawyers, scholars and courts.

EdenOne

The way I see it, it is the right of every religious community to cease spiritual fellowship with members who break the rules. They have the right to bar access to their Kingdom Halls and their meetings to people they view as undesirable. They have the right to bar ex-members from their religious services and public faith expressions.

HOWEVER ...

There should be a distinction between removing someone from within the community of believers and enforcing full on ostracism. Namely:

a) The community shouldn’t be allowed to treat the former member differently than they treat someone who has never been a member. Doing so is an unacceptable form of discrimination based on religious beliefs, which is an outright violation of human rights.

b) The former member, since is no longer part of the religious community, is also no longer under its disciplinary reach. Therefore, the boundaries of disciplinary action should be limited to the boundaries of the religious community itself. Since, by definition, a religious community is a fellowship of believers, any form of sanction must not overflow the boundaries of the spiritual fellowship - that means, it must not demand the severance of ties that may exist outside the realm of spiritual fellowship.

c) No excommunication may excuse the use of hate speech against the former members. No legally established religion should be allowed to teach discrimination in the name of faith and keep enjoying the benefits of legal recognition.

d) No one should be forced to stay in a religious community they do not wish to belong to, and the individual’s choice of formally or informally parting ways with a religious community shouldn’t be subject to any form of penalty, for that is also a violation of human rights.

36

Drastic Upcoming Changes? (accelerated by the pandemic)

by JWTom in

good to see you again!

much discussion now about the fallout that is coming due to impacts of the pandemic combined with the long-term downward spiral of jw.org.

i am active as a pimo and my wife is pimi....much of our personal conversation and conversation with others in jw land focuses on how things will play out for jw.org in the next 12-24 months.

EdenOne

I think there will be a consolidation of Circuits, and a reduction the respective number of CO’s. The visits to congregations would be twice a year, but one of those would be via zoom; end of career CO’s that require a wage and a house - experienced (retired?) elders living within the circuit could step in and, with travel expenses covered by the congregations and a small stipend to help cover for domestic use of internet, computer etc. provided by the Society.

Less kingdom halls, albeit larger and high-tech with less congregations with more people in each. I agree that presencial meetings would be narrowed to once every weekend, with a mid-week meeting conducted by zoom from the local branch. All KHs ultimately owed by one of Watchtower’s satellite corporations exclusively devoted to real estate management.

Door-to-door witnessing dropped altogether, replaced by cart witnessing. Emphasis on informal witnessing and “witnessing by example”. This would require a re-interpretation of Acts 20:20, and it shouldn’t be difficult at all. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched that they will come up with some software online tool to conduct bible studies remotely.

Ramping efforts into multimedia production and online presence, while printed publications become almost residual (NWT, one current study book, tri-monthly 32-page Watchtower magazine public edition, pamphlets. Watchtower study articles moved to digital publishing only). Investment in online advertising.

Larger gatherings reduced to a once-a-year weekend event, with a lot of eye-filling spectacle and multimedia content. They are going down the evangelical avenue, with a streak of their own.

Disfellowshipping will continue, with more offenses getting included, (I suspect that inactivity will become subject to disfellowshipping) but punishment somehow less strict on the surface, to avoid problems with secular authorities regarding human rights.

607 BCE/1914 - based chronology will be quietly faded out, replaced by a “as Jesus said, we don’t know exactly when, but anytime now” Armageddon expectation.

I expect that the blood doctrine to be further softened when it comes to medical use.

34

Why did Jehovah Kill all the animals in the flood? What purpose did it serve??

by pistolpete in

some of my jw family that is waking up posed that question to my jw family that is still hanging on to jw belief.. the stepbrother that posed that question told me;.

"in all these years of being a jw, i actually never gave it much thought as to why jehovah had to kill millions of innocent animals that had nothing to do with mankind becoming evil.".

i keep picturing in my mind, all the baby puppies and kitties that were destroyed by jehovah.

EdenOne

Obviously, those animals copulating furiously and with multiple partners without a proper marriage officiated by BigJ were guilty of fornication and deserved to die.

18

Narrowly focused, sometimes illiterate

by vienne in

three of my sisters - there are five of us - were baptized as witnesses.

one of them has gone from reading voraciously to only reading her textbooks and watchtower publications.

this does not seem to be unusual among witnesses.

EdenOne

Watchtower does not fear the informed, questioning believer

What a blatant lie! Unless you mean believers ‘informed by the Watchtower alone’ and believers who only ask the questions made and answered by the Watchtower itself. As for believers who truly get information from credible sources, who can think for themselves, and ask difficult, even embarrassing questions, yes definitely the Watchtower fears them. Why else would they be chased down and ultimately expelled if they don’t retract from their sin of “independent thinking”? I’m sure you’re not interested in my personal testimony on that subject, the witch hunting I was subjected to by congregation elders and the branch office because I ... wait for it ... dared to get informed and ask questions.

One episode I’ll never forget: A dear elder telling me, as we sat in his car for a “friendly advice session” after we went out together on field service: “Dear brother Eden, it’s great that you take such interest in deep spiritual matters, but you do too much thinking and studying. That’s wholly unnecessary and puts you in danger. The Organization already did all of that for us, they did all the chewing, and all we have to do is trust them and eat the [baby] paps they put on the table for us.”

I can’t think of anything more ignorant, stupidifying and dumbed down that that “friendly advice”.

So when you imply that the Witnesses value

“genuine intellectual inquire and freedom”

you really make me want to vomit with your hipocrisy. Sure, in the North-Korean way of freedom and intellectual inquire. The key word here is “genuine”, and what Watchtower think it’s genuine, or legitimate. “Genuine” means “within the boundaries set by the Watchtower”.

You betray yourself when you attack the critical scholarship because it undermines unity of thought. Perhaps you believe that “genuine” scholarship should be acritical and tame? That’s the loaded language of tyrants and their authoritarian regimes. That’s the same imagery used by Franz and Covington on the Walsh trial case (read the transcript here) when they openly admitted that, even if the Watchtower published falsities, the Witnesses should take them at face value, unquestionably, because it was imperative that they, as an army, marched in unity of thought. And, as in an army, those who don’t march in unity, are nothing but troublemakers who deserved to be put to death. Plainly stated like that.

At one judicial committee, my best friend, an elder, turned to me and said that I deserved death because my “information” and “questioning” led me to disagree with one particular Watchower teaching. Some friend huh. That’s what “Watchtower education” does to believers: not only makes them ill-equipped with grammar; turns them into moral monsters.

240

Derek Chauvin - The Right to a Fair Trial

by Simon in

anyone following the derek chauvin trial?.

if you are actually following it, not just listening to the media, you will likely realize that there is a huge gap between what is going on in court and what is being reported in the media.. if the trial was fair, i think he should be acquitted.

there is plenty of reasonable doubt about the cause of death (his dealer doesn't want to testify because he could be guilty of 3rd degree murder for selling him a fatal amount of fentanyl) and even doubt over whether the officer even had his knee on the guys neck or did anything counter to what they were meant to do as per policy.. but is it fair?

EdenOne

Racist? You know no one cares about being called racist anymore, right?

That may be true in North America, but in Europe, public officers have to step down from their office if they make a racist remark. If what you're saying was really universally true ("no one cares") then mankind would have gone one step back.

But I'm guessing you're making that remark based solely on what you've come to feel comfortable with.

13

JW's getting creative (or desperate) to preach during the pandemic ....

by EdenOne in

so, there's this social game called second life.. there one creates an avatar and can lead a parallel life.

there's a bit of everything, from general environments to adult.

it can be a hub for creative people, it can be a magnet for creeps.

EdenOne

there's no fucking way that's true.

I agree, there's no way they'd agree to that.

8

Losing My Religion - America's progressive estrangement from organized religion

by EdenOne in

this article on the latest gallup survey:.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/america-losing-religion-effects-long-093028404.html.

in 1937, 73% of americans would be affiliated with some organized religion; that number remained steady until 1999: (70%); the 21st century brought about a major shift: 50% in 2018; 47% in the latest survey.. children who grew up in households without organized religion are less likely to affiliate to some form of organized religion.. it's not only a generational difference; the growth in those who express no religious preference is also on the rise in generation x (those born between mid 1960's and early 1980's).

EdenOne

On a follow-up to this post and the poll, there is an interview Andres Oppenheimer to Hamid Shamid, published on the Miami Herald.

Some key ideas:

"The decline of religions in the Western world is leaving a huge vacuum, which is being filled by political fundamentalism. New secular ideologies are taking the place of religion,” (...) “What was once religious belief has now been channeled into political belief. The decline of religion in much of the world has not reduced people’s need to believe in something, because, “Human beings, by their very nature, are searching for meaning, belonging, coherent structure,” Hamid told me. And that won’t change. “Nobody can survive long without some ultimate loyalty,” he added. "The danger now is that religions will be replaced by secular political fanaticism. That, combined with Facebook, Twitter and social-media companies that profit from disseminating extremist views, is further polarizing our societies."

Many people have left their JW's religious views, and religion altogether, but that doesn't mean they have left the mindset behind their belief affiliations. That mindset is now channeled towards political beliefs. Interesting, heh?

You can find the article here.

13

JW's getting creative (or desperate) to preach during the pandemic ....

by EdenOne in

so, there's this social game called second life.. there one creates an avatar and can lead a parallel life.

there's a bit of everything, from general environments to adult.

it can be a hub for creative people, it can be a magnet for creeps.

EdenOne

So, here’s an update to this story:

My wife and I decided to attend one of these “educational events”.

We arrive even before the scheduled time. No one there. We waited. Someone else arrives (not the host) to attend. Almost 8 minutes late and the host arrives and, without as much as greeting the audience, starts the stream. Obviously, it’s some audio file taken from JWBroadcast, I believe a reading from one of the simplest brochures, complete with question and answer. Dumbed down to the max.

After a few minutes, the other person (who came in seeking some form of fellowship and spiritual help) asked if the host was going to address the audience at some point. The host replied that the invitation was for a broadcast and if the person had questions, should visit the website. The other person commented it sounded like scam talk. Then I started asking questions and attempting to engage the host into a conversation about the Bible.

Fast forward. Another person comes in, pretending to be a curious visitor. In a couple of minutes the mask falls of. It’s another JW (pretending to be a student). In the meantime, the other early attendant poofs. The discussion went on and on. I have repeatedly challenged then to back up what they were saying with a Bible quote. They couldn’t produce one. In nearly two hours they couldn’t open the Bible ONCE and find a text that supported their claims. All they could say was “go to jw.com to get your answers”. And they kept streaming more audio files. i turned down the sound and just wrote. And, they glossed over at everything I was saying, hardly ever engaged in discussion, and kept saying “Jehovah loves you”, “Jehovah knows you”, “Jehovah wants you to be saved”, “Jehovah will bring change”, and other silly platitudes, and repeating “go to Jw.com” to find your answers. Arghhh!

At some point I went for the blood doctrine, and mentioned Acts 15, and they didn’t seem to connect the dots between that and “abstain from blood”. They said the Bible orders us to “abstain from blood” and when I mentioned Acts 15 they asked me what does it say? FFS! One of them vaguely criticized those who are “lukewarm” towards the truth, and I asked where does that expression originates from. Again, she was ignorant that it is found in the message to the Laodicean church in Revelation. These new people just parrot what they hear and can’t even use the Bible anymore. And they always keep this smug, condescending tone as they talk to you. They are so devastatingly ignorant, and yet they think they alone have the truth. They have absolutely no self-awareness at all.

It was so cringeworthy and frankly embarrassing for “old school” ex-Witnesses like us to see the quality of the “new Witnesses” from the digital era. So dumbed down, lame and robotic. It’s all “peace and love” christianity, easy listening platitudes, where Jesus is replaced by Jehovah. Where’s the fire and brim? Plus, when I asked about it, they claimed that their congregation Elders were aware of their initiative on Second Life and approved of it. After all, Jesus also preached to the sinners, they reasoned, so why not in here? I told them I found it hard to believe that for a fact, but who knows?

I then identified ourselves as ex-Witnesses, and ended it in a cordial tone, yet making them aware just how much dumbed down the religion has become from just a decade ago, and how they were so ill-equipped to defend their faith in public. They seemed blissfully unaware that there was a “pre-digital” era when the Witnesses actually used the Bible to preach to others. FFS ....

My wife commented with me afterwords, if she wouldn’t have left the Witnesses because she had found out about the child abuse scandals, she would eventually leave out of pure shame for the dumbing down of the religion. That says it all, I guess.