Jehovah's Witnesses aren't really free self-determined agents. The very threat of disfellowshipping made to those who refuse to shun precludes that. Want to test it? Remove the mechanisms and threats of retaliation. Let's see how many keep on shunning of their own determination. And then we can start a conversation about the "right to shun".
EdenOne
JoinedPosts by EdenOne
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24
“The Right to Shun: Ghent’s Misguided Jehovah’s Witness Decision“ Matthew P. Cavedon
by AndersonsInfo inhttps://canopyforum.org/2021/04/19/the-right-to-shun-ghents-misguided-jehovahs-witness-decision/.
in march, the criminal court of ghent, belgium fined the congregation of jehovah’s witnesses (jw) for “inciting discrimination and hatred or violence against former members.” the case centered on the jw practice of “disfellowshipping.” while the court’s sensitivity to the individual impact of shunning is laudable, its decision regrettably assaults the freedoms of religion and association.. first, some background on jw beliefs and disfellowshipping.
jw was founded in the united states over a century ago and is headquartered in new york state.
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No more Questions from MINIMUS
by was a new boy inminimus former jw, prolific poster on jwn died.. minimus.
joined 19 years ago.
started 4,139 topics.
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EdenOne
RIP Minumus
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Resurrection after a death sentence in the OT?
by EdenOne ini have a question for those more versed in biblical history than i. .
knowing that a belief in a resurrection on messianic times was a later jewish belief ... but still ... did the ot jews believe that someone served a capital punishment / death sentence would be elegible for future resurrection?.
meaning: when coding the torah, did its writers intended that the capital punishment also be understood as an obliteration for all eternity?.
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EdenOne
It's still current. Pick up Insight On The Scriptures under entry "Expelled" and see for yourself.
The biggest flaw I find in the analogy (besides the obvious lack of compassion) is that someone executed couldn't be rehabilitated, whereas JW's allow and incentive the reinstatement of disfellowshipped people. So the rethotic is all about fear and hatred, but not really consequential.
There are, however, some details on the analogy that are worth noting: in ancient Israel, after stoning, the corpse was hung from a tree and put on public display until sunset. Hanging between earth and heaven was symbolic of rejection from both worlds. Humilliation and shame after death. Defilement of the memory of the deceased. Horror in the minds of the observers. That's what shunning after disfellowshipping is meant to accomplish to ex-JWs.
In JW land, the shunning follows the disfellowshipped person even AFTER death. Regarding funeral procedures, a "wordly unbeliever" gets better treatment than an ex-JW to whom a funeral service conducted by a minister of religion is denied. So much for "all sins are forgiven in death" ...
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Resurrection after a death sentence in the OT?
by EdenOne ini have a question for those more versed in biblical history than i. .
knowing that a belief in a resurrection on messianic times was a later jewish belief ... but still ... did the ot jews believe that someone served a capital punishment / death sentence would be elegible for future resurrection?.
meaning: when coding the torah, did its writers intended that the capital punishment also be understood as an obliteration for all eternity?.
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EdenOne
Slimboyfat, Isaiah 26:19 (composed in the 8th century BC, hence, pre-exilic) also discusses resurrection:
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Those who live in the dust will wake up and shout for joy!
For your dew is like the dew of dawn,
and the earth will give birth to the dead.And Isaiah 52:12-53:13, speaking of the "suffering servant", also seems to be speaking of some reward in an afterlife.
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Resurrection after a death sentence in the OT?
by EdenOne ini have a question for those more versed in biblical history than i. .
knowing that a belief in a resurrection on messianic times was a later jewish belief ... but still ... did the ot jews believe that someone served a capital punishment / death sentence would be elegible for future resurrection?.
meaning: when coding the torah, did its writers intended that the capital punishment also be understood as an obliteration for all eternity?.
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EdenOne
I wonder if this passage could offer a useful clue?
Deuteronomy 21:22, 23: "If a man commits a sin deserving the sentence of death and he has been put to death and you have hung him on a stake, his dead body should not remain all night on the stake. Instead, you should be sure to bury him on that day, because the one hung up is something accursed of God, and you should not defile your land that Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance."
The executed was "accursed of God ". No place in the resurrection of the righteous, then? Or ...?
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Resurrection after a death sentence in the OT?
by EdenOne ini have a question for those more versed in biblical history than i. .
knowing that a belief in a resurrection on messianic times was a later jewish belief ... but still ... did the ot jews believe that someone served a capital punishment / death sentence would be elegible for future resurrection?.
meaning: when coding the torah, did its writers intended that the capital punishment also be understood as an obliteration for all eternity?.
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EdenOne
All good references, still not addressing my question... did ancient Jews thought of people executed with death penalty as permanently obliterated, or would they hold hope in a future resurrection / afterlife?
Any Talmudic / Targumic / apocrypha sources on this?
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Resurrection after a death sentence in the OT?
by EdenOne ini have a question for those more versed in biblical history than i. .
knowing that a belief in a resurrection on messianic times was a later jewish belief ... but still ... did the ot jews believe that someone served a capital punishment / death sentence would be elegible for future resurrection?.
meaning: when coding the torah, did its writers intended that the capital punishment also be understood as an obliteration for all eternity?.
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EdenOne
Noted but that is later (second temple) judaism...? My question is directed at the time of the coding of the Torah, so earlier.
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Resurrection after a death sentence in the OT?
by EdenOne ini have a question for those more versed in biblical history than i. .
knowing that a belief in a resurrection on messianic times was a later jewish belief ... but still ... did the ot jews believe that someone served a capital punishment / death sentence would be elegible for future resurrection?.
meaning: when coding the torah, did its writers intended that the capital punishment also be understood as an obliteration for all eternity?.
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EdenOne
I have a question for those more versed in biblical history than I.
Knowing that a belief in a resurrection on messianic times was a later Jewish belief ... but still ... did the OT Jews believe that someone served a capital punishment / death sentence would be elegible for future resurrection?
Meaning: When coding the Torah, did its writers intended that the capital punishment also be understood as an obliteration for all eternity?
This bears significance to me, as I'm arguing about the significance of Jehovah's Witnesses comparing disfellowshipping as being analogous to ancient capital punishment in ancient Israel.
Can someone weight in?
Thank you
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Religious groups in UK failing children over sex abuse, report says - BBC News
by ballistic inhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270.
this item just featured on the bbc lunchtime news today as the headline story and the piece included a reporter who singled out jehovah's witnesses for discussion from the 30 organisations covered by the report.
the news item then went on to feature an extensive interview ex elder and ex jehovah's witness writer lloyd evans..
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EdenOne
"25. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are one of few religious organisations which have an internal disciplinary process which can lead to the expulsion of members. The internal disciplinary processes of the Jehovah’s Witnesses continue to use a rule of corroborative evidence known outside the community as ‘the two‐witness rule’, whereby in the absence of a confession the evidence of two material witnesses is required to establish an allegation, which can then lead to disfellowship for the purposes of internal discipline. The rule is not intended to be a safeguarding measure. Nevertheless, it has no place in any response to child sexual abuse and fails to reflect the reality that by its very nature child sexual abuse
is most often perpetrated in the absence of witnesses. The rule’s capacity to cause harm to victims and survivors of child sexual abuse is clear. We have received first‐hand evidence
of this harm. As it presently operates, the Jehovah’s Witnesses internal disciplinary process for disfellowshipping members bears no relationship to how sexual crime happens. The continuing use of this rule shows a disregard of the seriousness of the crimes involved and their impact on individuals. It also lacks compassion for the victim, and serves to protect the perpetrator."Page 115 btw
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Don't take my booze!
by David.L.Henson ina direct confirmation that judge joseph rutherford, 2nd president of the watchtower organization, had a weak spot for good whisky, can be found in the following hilarious watch tower article.. the u.s. congress had passed the spirit prohibition law, and the judge was absolutely furious that these "servants of satan" tried to take his booze away.. the watch tower, which according to fred franz had jehovah as editor during these days, directly stated that christians could not "participate in" such a prohibition.
in other words, they had to smuggle and drink booze to be loyal to god.
the jws are unfortunately a much more boring sect these days.. the watchtower, november 1, 1924prohibition.
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EdenOne
Most amusing trope, considering that Rutherford was a known alcoholic who had Watchtower employees smuggling booze from Canada to the US along with literature to satisfy his indulgence.