Posts by EdenOne

164

Did Cedars manipulate Lee into having a thread closed?

by cedars in

i will happily answer this question if there can be some guarantees this thread won't be deleted..

EdenOne

Simon, I wasn't quick enough to take a photograph of it.

But, for at least a minute, at the bottom of the thread, I had this message saying: Close.. then two buttons, Yes, No.

What was this?

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

thats what you claim and what I hope to see some proof of

Do you have a better explanation for that? Let's hear it. You should benefit from reading some books on the subject of Anthropology. I recommend Émile Durkheim.

okay now i am confused. did our brains evolve in the meantime

Not necessarily. We simply accomulated more knowledge of the world around us and replaced magic explanations for empirical observations. When the epistemological leap from religiousness to rationalism was given, so were the ethical values disconnected from religious systems of belief.

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

My name is Bill Blyth, what's yours?

Nice to meet you. I'm Eden. That's all you deserve need to know.

Btw, nice punch below the waist line.

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

So what?

So you concede that religion likely gave a positive contribution to human development. You may not find a place for religious belief in your ultra-rational system nowadays; I still do. So what - do you claim to be a more evolved species than myself, or something?

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Thats not a rational argument. By the same token, you can "proove" fire is the cause of compassion. How? find any proof humans practiced compassion before the invention of fire...

Point is: Ancient humans have been able to display affections just like any animal can. But an affection becomes an ethical value by effect of a religious belief system, no matter how incipient it may be. Only in a later stage (modernity), such ethical values became rationalized and independent from religious beliefs.

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Chimps do this - atheist chimps. So do birds and countless other species of animals.

I think you missed my point. I referred to compassion, charity and altruistic love as ethical values, not as affections that even animals are able to display. And since when a chimp is "atheist"?? LOL gawd.

Eden

Edit: I seem to be unable to make another post. Am I under some kind of restriction?

Edit: Nevermind, it's back

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Homo Sapiens practiced religion certainly before Adam and Eve were created. (No, I don't believe that Abel and Cain invented the altar and the sacrifices on it. They observed others doing it.). However, I challenge you to come up with evidence that compassion, charity and altruism were practised as ethical values by the Homo Sapiens before a religious system, however incipient, was developed. And what I mean is a display of such qualities in a more significant way than animals did - like a mother caring for her child or the father protecting his family. Funeral rites since early in mankind's pre-history denote a concern with religious beliefs very early in the timeline of mankind.

Anybody who imagines that religion has as much claim on reality as science is either ignorant, biased or both.

I didn't say that. However it has claim on certain aspects of reality that science doesn't have a concern for.

There, I commented on your comments without furhter "personal remarks". Pitty you can't follow your own advice.

Oh, and btw - since "Cofty" isn't your real name, I can freely use the term "persona". See Wiki: "[In psychology] persona is also the mask or appearance one presents to the world".

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Religion is not a force for good.

No? Isn't religious belief at the origin of altruistic love, compassion, charity? You must be kidding me.

"Religious truth" is an oxymoron.

It's as much an oxymoron as the expression "scientific truth", then. Just because you personally don't accept the existence of God, doesn't mean reallity ends up agreeing with you - or me, for that matter. God may well end up being something very different than what we presume to be. Yet, there will still be a "truth" about God, and someday we will know it. How close we are at this point to that point is perhaps the question.

Don't confuse confidence for arrogance.

Nah, it's really arrogance, Cofty. You better embrace that notion. You're both.

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Let it be clear that I respect your journey into where you are today. Naturally I do not know all the circumstances involved, and I appreciate that you took the time to share them. You followed what appealed to your persona and came to accept that religion is a lie and you replaced it with science in your system. I can respect that; it works for you personally and if that's how the cosmos makes sense to you, who am I to argue against it? We agree that nowadays science does make mankind advance in awe-inducing ways that religion couldn't do, simply because that wasn't the role that religion was supposed to play. However, you have to also agree that historically, religion did more for mankind's ethics and values than science ever did or ever could care to do - again, because that's not the role of science.

My issue is with the arrogance that usually surfaces when someone who presumes to possess the "truth" about anything - be it the scientific "truth" or the religious "truth". In your case, the "scientific truth". But do not mistaken me, I have recently developed the same aversion about those who exhibit the same kind of arrogance for thinking they have "the truth" - and this includes many Jehovah's Witnesses, some of them very close to me. Lately I've neared getting in trouble with close JW family because I just can't take dogmatic statements from the platform anymore. They make me angry, because, if there's something I've learned from being in this forum with you, Cofty, is to ask myself: "How would a visitor who's not mentally inclined to nod to this drivel would think of us if he were to listen to this?".

You asked me about my own journey. I may not have the same ballsy attitude that you had in leaving the WTS when I started to see it for what it really is - just another Christian church, filled with a false sense of its own superiority above everyone else. I don't find it an hypocrisy to stay, at least for the time being. I still believe in the fundamentals, and I have much to lose in terms of family and friends, if I make the wrong moves right now. In many ways, my business life has taught me to not take hasty decisions, and think ahead, and let some time roll. I prioritize my family, my work and my love for music. When my work allows me some time, then I like to focus on examin what my beliefs are. This is where this forum comes very handy - I learn a lot from what I read here, even when I don't participate. Where will it take me, I don't know, time will tell. I don't have a plan.

As for my previous post, I apologize if I was overly harsh on your persona.

Eden

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

EdenOne

Cofty and his anti-religion, anti-faith, pro-rationalism cruzade carries on ... Sometimes I wonder just how much have you really changed in your core being, from a dogmatic JW to a charismatic born-again, to a zealot atheist scientific orthodox; because the personality trait remains the same. Let's leave out of the equation who you are, since I accept that you're a respectable, intelligent and honored man. That's beside the point.

However, when contemporary scientific orthodox people such as yourself presume they have achieved the ranks of "unquestionable Truth" about the cosmos, you prove yourself to be absolutely no better than the religious orthodoxy that you so ardently advocate against. There's a blatant hipocrisy when you claim that you're not dogmatic, since what you accept as scientific fact generally accepted as valid among the scientific circles can indeed change if new evidence makes a compelling case for a change of interpretation of the reality, but, at the same time, you act as if the present knowledge is a sacred cow that cannot be questioned or challenged by others outside the "priestly" class of the "anointed" scientists, pseudo-scientists and lovers of science such as yourself.

Because the root of the problem lies in a snobbish attitude towards those who don't share your supposed rationalistic enlightenment. In many regards, you still live in the 18th century, in the Age of Enlightenment. I suspect that you would easily become an enlightened absolutist, since you do not tolerate the presence of people who hold faith without giving in to the irresistable call for atheist proselitism. And the urge to simply attempt to crush alternative views of the cosmos with your "shock and awe" argumentative tactics. It gets tiresome after a while to put up with it. Let the believers be believers, Cofty.

You (and others too) often attempt to hold religious leaders - and by extension, those who accept and share into similar beliefs - accountable for actions you judge as 'irrational'. I wonder what kind of punishment would you find adequate to prescribe to believers who commit the thought crime of having a non-rationalistic view of the world. Death, perhaps? A guetto, maybe? How about a concentration camp for believers? Would that suit you to satisfaction? But, in due honesty, can you claim that science hasn't acted irrationally as well?

If we could compile every claim published in respectable science publications since peer review became norm, and see see how many formulations once accepted as "truths" have been revised, amended, and even discarded as new evidence or measurements or social norms have emerged, what would a sensible person conclude? How foolish some accepted "facts" of 150 years ago appear to us today? How foolish will today's scientific zealots such as yourself appear some 200 years from now? I wonder if you're willing to accept that your descendants may well hold you accountable for your errors and your dogmatic vision of the world. If they're smart, they will say about you, what you say about religious discourse of people today: "The very definition of hubris". Your dogmatism will undoubtly be deemed foolish. Perhaps, if they're better than you, they'll forgive your ignorance and arrogance.

Eden