Posts by EdenOne

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

The petition has reached the milestone of 400 signatures.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

388 signatures

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

(Continued ...)

Once you have pressed the green button "Assinar Petição" (SIGN THIS PETITION). you will see this screen:

This is where you enter your data.

FIELD ONE "Nome Completo" : Your Full Name (Mandatory)

Please don't use aliases or handles or nicknames. In rare random cases, the website may ask further ID.

FIELD TWO "Email": Your contact email (Mandatory)

FIELD THREE: "Comentário": Leave a comment (Optional)

You are also given the option to sign in using your Facebook account. If you have issues concerning your privacy, I advise you to avoid doing so. CLICK THE GREEN BUTTON "ASSINAR PETIÇÃO" to complete.

Once you sign, you get a "thank you for your participation" screen and asks if you want to share the petition with your friends.

Most people choose not to, so click the black button "Não Pretendo Ajuda" (I Don't plan to help)

4) You will get an email to the mail address that you have entered, to confirm your vote.

Click on the link to confirm your signature.

Once you do that, you will get another "Thank you" screen. Close it, and it's done.

NOTE: IF YOU ARE STILL "IN" AND YOU MAY FEAR THAT YOUR NAME BE VISIBLE TO WATCHTOWER MOLES, USE YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT. ONE SUGGESTION: DON'T SAY WHAT COUNTRY YOU ARE VOTING FROM AND DON'T USE YOUR FULL NAME. Example: If your name is John Paul Pope Doe, you may use "Paul Pope", for example.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

edenone I think you may need to walk people through the steps after one signs the petition and gets the e-mail as it is hard to decipher because of the language barrier. - ruby456

ok, so here are the steps:

1) Find the petition on this address: http://peticaopublica.com/pview.aspx?pi=ExtRegistoATJ

You will see this on your screen:

2 - The text of the petition is on the left. Scroll down to read in its entirety. Then on the right, press the green button to sign for the petition.

EDIT: FOR SOME REASON I AM UNABLE TO POST MORE PICTURES ON THIS POST. I WILL CONTINUE ON THE NEXT POST.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

In an earlier post you mentioned that it is easy to prove that shunning policy of JW's are violating human rights because you have testimonials of you and your family as proof of it. But now you say that your family doesn't shun you and hence the petition is not about you? - Drearyweather

Not MY side of the family (except for a distant cousin who shuns me) but my wife's side of the family, yes.

In India, there are some states where people still believe in honor killing, where parents will even kill their adult children if they marry outside their caste. A 16 year old, fornicating? The entire family will be cast out and will be hounded for the rest of their lives.

This petition does not concern what happens in India.The citizens of India must stand up for their rights, and many are doing it as we write. Just because something is deeply rooted in the local culture, doesn't make it morally acceptable.

Thousands of lives screwed. But not one court case to back up the petition? Or Am I wrong?

Not to my knowledge in Portugal. When you consider how slowly justice works in Portugal and how expensive it is to pay a lawyer, and because THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY OR SEEKING COMPENSATIONS, it's no wonder that people don't take it to court. (Just to put things in perspective: A Lawyer will charge about 350,00 € to write a simple letter to, say, challenge a simple fine. Compare that with the minimum monthly wage in Portugal, which is 580,00 €, and you'll understand why hiring a lawyer to take a case to court puts people off). Not everything can be translated into money. We seek relief for the victims and no money can pay for that. Only a change in policy would.

history has shown that GB has never changed any core policies like shunning when any country has banned them.

This is not about banning the religion. Everyone is entitled to believe in some stupidity, as long as that freedom doesn't entail the violation of other people's fundamental rights.

And, I beg to disagree about the GB not changing their policies when under pressure. See when the IRS went after Jimmy Swaggart and his printed magazine? The GB felt that it could mean financial trouble for them, and voila! "new light" - the literature was no longer sold. And this is just one case that we know of. How many times the "new light" was driven by their fear of financial losses? I think that is the only language that they are sensitive to: their pockets. Losing charity status in Portugal could do just that to them - not to mention the reverberation it could mean for them all across the European Union.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

I still wouldn't trade the freedoms I have because while it caused me some hurt, I think we have a choice of whether we let it define us and make us a victim or whether we see life for what it is - there are some people we are genetically closer to than others, but we can't control or dictate choices to anyone whether they are family or just friends. - Simon

We just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Try explaining that to this teenage girl of 16 years old whose parents threw her out of the house because she committed "fornication" with a "worldly" boyfriend. Why? Because that's what the video in the last convention told them it was the right thing to do! It was "proper food at the right time!"And you think this family that kicked her to the curb would have done it had it not been the propaganda spewed by the religious organization they idolize? Come on!

I can count myself lucky - the family on my side hasn't cut me off. So no, it's not about ME being a victim. It's about many thousands of people who have been screwed up by shunning and everything that it entails. Nothing will come out of doing nothing. So, I decided to do SOMETHING. That's all there is to it.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

So you are part of this initiative edenone? - Ruby 456

I am the first signatory and mentor of this petition.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

Vidiot, the Portuguese constitution adopted the principles of the UN DOHR, which means they carry the same weight as the Constitution itself in our internal normative system. The Religious Freedom Act 16/2001 also explicitly remits to the Constitution and the DOHR. At least in theory, breaching those rights is in fact breaking the law. That's not the foundation of this petition, but is an accessory argument to the case in point.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

Again, you don't point to any actual law. When you want to do something legal, you need more than "someone was mean to me". Things can be unfair but not illegal.
You start by quoting vague human rights 'laws'
If you can't argue your case on an ex-JW forum then what are you supposed to do when you come up against real opposition to your claims?

Again, this only shows that you haven't bothered to read the petition, otherwise you wouldn't be making these claims. The breaches of the law are pointed there, and each article offended, and how, and the "hate speech" and "discriminatory instructions" are quoted there. If you don't bother to read the text of the petition, I certainly won't bother to discuss this with you.

You need to prove they do those things. I think you would have a hard time.

It's actually pretty easy to prove. All it takes is their literature and their confidential letters. And testimonials, including mine and my family, notwithstanding many others that I can produce.

After that you need to prove how the enforce it against people's will.

Threatening to disfellowship and shun someone if that person refuses to shun a disfellowshipped / disassociated person - I call that enforcing the policy against people's will. It's plain to see on the Shepherd the Flock of God elder's manual.

show me the court cases brought forward under that law.

This would be a case that would break new ground.

If one doesn't bother to challenge the "status quo", nothing will change. Watchtower used to hide behind the "confession privilege" to claim that elders weren't allowed to report to the authorities the complaints of child sex abuse that they became aware of. Until someone challenged that in court. And now the Watchtower cannot use that argument anymore. But someone had to challenge that status quo. The Watchtower will have to stop hiding behind the "religious freedom" to spew hate speech and teach / enforce discrimination and social ostracization. It takes someone to challenge that status quo. If my angle doesn't work, so be it. Someone else will find another. And another. And another. Until the Watchtower cannot hide anymore and concedes to change via some "new light". Who cares. As long as it changes.

If you think that a more well supported issue that would be far easier and straightforward to legislate isn't more likely to get political attention ahead of yours then I think you are being unrealistic.

Realistically, that's the only real risk at stake here. That this isn't considered a priority; especially because it might strike a nerve with the RCC. Still, it's a risk worth taking.

You still haven't made one reasonable argument as to why isn't worth trying.

127

PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne in

based on legal arguments that revolve around violations of several articles of the portuguese constitution, and of the law of religious freedom, a petition to the portuguese parliament has been set in motion to extinguish the legal entity that represents the jehovah's witness in portugal and remove this community from the national register of recognized religions protected by law.

the petition does not seek to ban the jehovah's witness as a whole in the country.

the petition denounces the institutional policy of shunning former members as a violation of basic human rights and psychological torture, and asks the portuguese legislators and judicial authorities to take action to stop this abuse, and suspend legal recognition to the branch office entity until the policies of shunning are changed.

EdenOne

Your topic headline is "Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness" but then you claim "The petition does NOT seek to ban the Jehovah's Witness as a whole in the country". That seems to be contradictory. What exactly is it meant to do? What is the outcome that would have you say "yes, we did it, we were successful!"

Have you bothered to read the actual text of the petition, Simon?

The reason to ask for the dissolving of the "charity" "not-for-profit" corporation that represents the Jehovah's Witnesses in Portugal is because there isn't any other provision in the Portuguese law to sanction a religious community for violations of human rights. Do you deny that institutionally enforced shunning for religious reasons is a violation of human rights? The practical consequences of this termination are ZERO for the individual witnesses; their constitutional rights to gather for worship meetings isn't touched, as isn't touched their right to share their faith by preaching. The practical consequences for the CORPORATION of the Jehovah's Witnesses? They might lose their status as an officially recognized religion, and therefore, lose: a) tax exemptions b) the right to celebrate weddings without a civil ceremony; c) the right to be heard in certain city planning situations regarding their places of worship; d) the right to access hospitals and prisons as "religious ministers".

The petition also asks for two other things: a) For the legislators to amend the Religious Freedom Act 16/2001, so that it includes a proper sanctions provision for religious communities who engage in hate speech and discrimination; and b) that the leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses community in Portugal are summoned to the Parliament and, under the mediation of the Parliament meet with the victims of their shunning policy, and negotiate changes in their policies to alleviate the suffering of the victims.

Then there is the question of admissibility: If the petition is considered admissible by the Parliament and the petitioners are granted an audience (even if we don't get 1000 votes) and we get the opportunity to explain what the shunning issue is about, so that the legislators become aware of this problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

If ANY of these four situations takes place, yes I would consider the petition a success.

You mention Laws of Religious Freedom. What are they exactly? Have you tried to find those laws? There are declarations which sound very nice but are worth diddly squat and there are treaties that are often the basis for laws being enacted in the countries that sign up to them - do you have the actual laws that you think they contravene?

Yes, and that is what a good portion of the petition is about: detailing how the institutionally enforced shunning and discrimination breaches the Law. If you had bothered to read the petition, you wouldn't be asking that question. I know, it's 36 pages long and perhaps you can't be bothered to attempt to translate it with Chrome or Firefox and then actually reading it. Some other people did just that and signed for it though. Go figure.

Take a look around at the world. There are people being executed in some countries for their religion. That is the sort of thing that the laws are there for and even THEY don't count for much. The idea that someone's internal family issues would take precedence over genuine abuses is rather sick IMO.

This petition does not concern with the rest of the world; it concerns my country, which is a member State of the European Community, where executions for religious reasons do not exist, and thankfully religions don't have the leeway they have in north America, thankfully. Your point is moot. And, again, read the petition: The individual right to associate or not associate with someone (even a family member) isn't being questioned, as long as it's exercised free from moral harassment and coercion. What is being challenged is the right of an institution that benefits from legal recognition and tax exemptions from the State to teach and enforce discrimination based on religious grounds.

Everyone is free to leave at any time. The JWs don't put an embargo round your house and prevent people going there. Whether their members chose to stay or chose to leave is up to those individuals and there is nothing that you can do to get what you want without trampling on a whole set of established laws around the world and I'm sorry, it just ain't gonna happen, not for this and not for other things 1,000 times more important.

I have to strongly disagree with you. I mean, really, Simon?? You're doing the Watchtower Society a favor with that argument. Real freedom means to do (or not do) something without being unduly conditioned by the fear of morally wrong, unreasonable and unwarranted consequences. If Jehovah's Witnesses would be able to leave their religion without facing the dire consequences of being perpetually shunned, then I would agree with you. But both you and I know that's not how it works. That's not how cults operate.

The 'irrelevancy argument' that you brought up doesn't make sense either. As an example: If your business partner would screw you up, would you not take legal action just because there are a gazillion more important issues in the world?

There are Treaties on equal pay for women - with all the current hullabaloo about gender pay inequality, where are those court cases? Or Treaties about equal treatment of race - again, how's that all working out? Why do you imagine something of practically zero interest to the majority of people will jump to prime importance?

That may be the scenario in north America. It's not the case in Europe, where matters like such are taken a lot more seriously. And if no one does nothing, then nothing will ever change. We have to start somewhere.

No one cares

If everyone would have your attitude, then we would still live in a society where slavery would be acceptable, women's rights wouldn't exist, and burning witches would be a thing, because .... no one would care.

Truth is: YOU don't care. Others do, though. Your criticism has been duly noted.