who were your past circuit overseers?
i'm sure a lot of us actually know mutual people, as the co's relocate all over the country.. here's a few from the southeast us: (let me know if you recognize any names and post yours too please...).
ellwood johnson (new york/philadelphia area for several years also).
I was told this week that Mike Seidler had passed away on 6th May 2023, aged 77 years.
I've heard the name but don't really remember him. I don't think he was ever a CO in my circuit. However, I did find this: https://www.funeralguide.co.uk/obituaries/111896
i can confirm that the co during one of his service talks stated that zoom is a provision for elderly, infirmed, as well as people who might need it on occasion due to health reasons, otherwise you are expected to be in person at meetings and in the ministry.
this had to come down from the top.
maybe they do not want to put it in a gb update or broadcast since that would be too public i suppose.
I can't comment about the US, but in the UK (and possibly on continental Europe) I think the insistence on people attending RCs or CAs in person is less about contributions now.
They're increasingly encouraging attendees to contribute online and electronically - in fact there have not been any cash donation points at assemblies and conventions here for some time now. This is because charities get an extra 25% called GiftAid from the UK government based on the tax status of the donor, which is easier to process and claim via electronic payments linked to the payee.
I suspect the push to get congregation members back in person is more about control than money. As several on this forum have admitted, it's far easier to put the Zoom meeting on in the background, keep your camera off and just do something else. No need to dress up and make any other effort either. To everyone else, you appear to be "attending" the meeting.
But to attend in person, you have to do all that's expected of you: smart suit or dress, pack your electronic device with JW apps, travel to the venue, sit down and follow the programme, meet and greet all the bros and sisters - and any attempt to step out of line is easily spotted.
The other factor influencing the insistence on returning in person is that other essential for JW life: appearance. The RCs and CAs have to look good, so the org can talk about how well-attended and "encouraging" it all is. Big gaps in seating and wide open spaces in aisles and concourses don't look so good!
https://i.redd.it/hd9p1g3ssr2b1.jpg.
1290 jw congregations have been deleted since 4th dec 2022. i have a full map so you can explore active/deleted congs, and also orphaned halls https://analytics.jws-library.one/viewmap.html.
many of the deletions in the usa appear to be foreign language groups.
It kind of worked for a while, but COVID really made it an unworkable model.
In the UK and EU territories, what was crippling these foreign language groups from well before COVID is the GDPR data regulations which came into law in 2016. Prior to that, it was easy to pass addresses and details of 'foreign' residents you found in the English ministry over to the relevant language group, but now the law requires you to get the consent of the householder before making any notes or passing on their details.
That's perfectly right, of course, but it's virtually killed off referrals to foreign language groups.
Now they justify closing groups by saying that if foreign language speakers return to their local English congregation, they are better placed to support foreign householders in their local territory. There is some truth to that, but really it's a cover for the fact that GDPR has destroyed the usual chain of informal communication and referral that JWs in the foreign field relied on.
https://i.redd.it/hd9p1g3ssr2b1.jpg.
1290 jw congregations have been deleted since 4th dec 2022. i have a full map so you can explore active/deleted congs, and also orphaned halls https://analytics.jws-library.one/viewmap.html.
many of the deletions in the usa appear to be foreign language groups.
Is the possible to name the 16 congregations that have closed in Britain?
Just to add, that only includes closures since Dec 2022.
I happen to know of two London English congregations that were disbanded and their members dispersed to other neighbouring congregations, and another foreign language group that was deleted, for the start of the current service year (beginning Sept 2022). There were no doubt others.
So goodness knows how many in total have been removed since, say, this time last year. The org usually makes changes at the start of a service year, which for them runs from September to August.
https://i.redd.it/hd9p1g3ssr2b1.jpg.
1290 jw congregations have been deleted since 4th dec 2022. i have a full map so you can explore active/deleted congs, and also orphaned halls https://analytics.jws-library.one/viewmap.html.
many of the deletions in the usa appear to be foreign language groups.
Interesting. That looks like a roughly 1% decrease worldwide in congregations and groups within just six months. Admittedly, many are probably smaller language groups and congregations, but that still represents a big change compared to the growth of the org 10-20 years ago.
As born out by the recent annual stats, there appears to have been a big decline in congregations in Central Europe, the USA, South America and Central and Southern Africa.
All the most recent deletions in the UK appear to be foreign language groups also. In particular, Tagalog, Mandarin Chinese and Polish. Certainly there are a lot of Polish people in the UK, but it appears they're no longer buying into what the org has to offer.
i just found out from my jehovah's witness cousin that my old congregation is being shuttered due to lack of elders, less than 20 members attending, and that the congregation cannot meet their monthly expenses.. here is a congregation that was started in 1975 with less than 15 members.
it grew to 185 members in the 1990's.
the congregation grew so large that the elders decided to split the congregation in two.
Nope. They own every last one. All titles were seized, mortgaged or not.
It was one of those (many) situations where a "vote" against a resolution by the congregation would have made no difference.
If any congregation had voted not to hand over their Hall to the Org, then pretty soon it would've been disbanded, the members scattered to neighbouring congs, and the building seized anyway!
" and a mighty cry went out over all the land: "sell !
sell !
sell !
Here are two of the latest UK Kingdom Hall sell-offs:
Aberdare, Wales - £129,995: https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/64218611/
Letchworth, Hertfordshire, England - £650,000: https://bernardgordon.co.uk/properties/purpose-built-single-storey-place-of-worship-for-sale-approx-3085-sq-ft-with-extensive-parking-letchworth
Anyone know of any others right now, or in recent months?
from what i can see no such thing is happening.i became a jw in 1960 and remained for about 30 years and the numbers of active jw`s today in the world are far greater than they were back then.. and here in australia the numbers are much higher than they were back then .. so i don`t see that their in decline or have any worries about losing support .. don`t the numbers speak for themselves ?.
is it just wishful thinking on your part ?.
One aspect of "decline" is not so much in numbers, but in the presence in their midst of the 100% J.W believer...
Yes, that goes hand in hand with what I was saying about the quality of 'publisher' these days, and it's likely to feed directly into a continuing decline. If the ones preaching now and in the future are not as convinced or as convincing as the old-timers, then the chances of bringing new ones in and converting them are reduced.
Also, it makes those still in the org less inclined to be 'zealous', so will have a knock-on effect to the numbers 'reaching out', and mean more will be on the edge of the congregation, less inclined to associate with other members of the congregation, and more likely to miss meetings or become inactive/disassociated if other events in their life take priority.
That's what we're seeing now, it seems.
this was posted on exjw reddit, check it out if some of you never have.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13q6k5l/normal_people_dont_give_a_darn_if_youre_a_witness/ .
i find this to be the case, people in general are so not interested in religion that they really could care less about jws.
I'm sure there's scripture about making a witness at every possible opportunity.
You might be thinking of 1 Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect" - they like to use that to prepare witnesses to speak out, but it's not about pushing your beliefs on others, it's clearly about responding IF you are asked/challenged first. The preceding verses show it's your conduct that should 'speak', as you said. Only if you are challenged should you be ready to make a defence.
On comparing with other faiths, I have occasionally worked with over-enthusiastic charismatic Christians - I remember one particularly over-the-top Nigerian guy who would remind everyone of his faith at some point every day, either by talking about the last sermon he heard in church or something he read in the Bible that day.
But I found the most irritating were the Muslims around the time of Ramadan who would make a big show of the fact they were fasting. If there was any food being offered in the office, or if someone commented on going out for a coffee or what they were doing for lunch or something similar, there was always one who would emphatically say: No, sorry, I can't, I'm fasting!" or else they would say something equally loudly about having to go to do their prayers. It always reminded me of Jesus' words at Matthew 6 about not praying and fasting openly to draw attention to yourself ("Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full") but I would never say anything or it could've ended badly!
from what i can see no such thing is happening.i became a jw in 1960 and remained for about 30 years and the numbers of active jw`s today in the world are far greater than they were back then.. and here in australia the numbers are much higher than they were back then .. so i don`t see that their in decline or have any worries about losing support .. don`t the numbers speak for themselves ?.
is it just wishful thinking on your part ?.
On the one hand, I don't think the current JW org will just disappear. But on the other, I agree with nicolaou that the previous form of the organisation is already largely dead since GB 2.0 took over.
I came in just at the tail end of the 'old' organisation (one indication of the change is that it was called "the society" by most in the congregation then, not "the organisation", and that's one way you can still tell the 'old-timers' now - they still say "the society" when speaking about instruction coming from NY).
The big changes that came in after president Henschel died and then the other 'old' GB members like Barber, Barr, Schroeder and Sydlik had all gone - from about 2010 onwards - have transformed the JW organisation beyond recognition from its late 20th century incarnation. This seemed to be lead by the 'new guard' of GB 2.0 who took complete control from the 2010s, with Losch being the longest serving (having only been appointed in 1994). After that, Herd, Lett and Splane arrived in 1999 and Jackson and Morris (who he?) in 2005.
Adopting the blue square corporate logo, introducing the televangelist-style Broadcasting channel, bringing video and cartoons into meetings and conventions, electronic devices everywhere and paper Bibles and books virtually non-existent, releasing completely new songbooks (with awful Disney-fied and cheesy Christian rock style songs) and a changed NWT, scrapping the TMS and reducing the ministry to bite-sized 'Q&A then point to the website or play a video' tactics, introducing public witnessing with carts - the list of changes goes on, most of which are miles away from their practices of the 1990s and earlier, and some of them stand in complete opposition to their beliefs of old (the televangelism of JW Broadcasting and Disney-fication of the Bible for videos, for example).
The quality of the new members also shows a big change too, with far fewer being capable of holding the kind of Bible debates and discussions that JWs baptised and taught prior to the 2000s could, and few being interested in genuinely deep or serious Bible study or discussion.
As has been said, there is virtually no growth from outside these days (which is hardly surprising). Although hours spent on the ministry have been increasing, the quality of teaching is so poor and unconvincing now that it's unlikely to persuade many. It's becoming a case of 'diminishing returns'. I can remember when we used to see annual growth in JWs of more than 3% a year, but that's not been the case for a couple of decades now.
That's likely to slow the pace of the organisation, but it has enough internal structure, unity and momentum to keep it going despite external pressure like opposition and legal actions. As slim said, it takes a long time for a religion to die away, and the JW org has the advantage of being multi-national which protects it somewhat from complete collapse even if it were to wither away in some parts of the world.
