Posts by Journeyman

in the insight book under expelling, it refers to 1 cor 5 and titus 3 and 2 thess 3 as the basis for disfellowshipping.they've often said that the governing body was stated in acts 15 of the apostles and older men.

however, why was there no decree or letter issued by the governing body or apostles and older men and sent out to the congregations, detailing the principles of disfellowshipping?

it is all paul.

Journeyman

My query was that it is odd how people follow the apostles or letters from them when they are no different than a circuit or district overseer, or a Bethel Elder giving a letter or talk.

Possibly, but if you take the Bible as "gospel" (pardon the pun), the apostle Paul was selected by Jesus so he could be said to be acceptable as a source of instruction for the body of Christians.

There's definitely no such evidence for any of the modern-day org like the GB, COs or Bethel elders!

16

Is Disfellowshipping properly legislated?

by Rattigan350 in

in the insight book under expelling, it refers to 1 cor 5 and titus 3 and 2 thess 3 as the basis for disfellowshipping.they've often said that the governing body was stated in acts 15 of the apostles and older men.

however, why was there no decree or letter issued by the governing body or apostles and older men and sent out to the congregations, detailing the principles of disfellowshipping?

it is all paul.

Journeyman

Uneven application. Corinthians example was less than a year.

You illustrate my point all the more. As I said, the scriptures do not support the concept of "total shunning" as applied by the Org today. In that case, because the man was repentant, Paul said he should be accepted back and not shamed any more.

A couple of other points:

1) The current "total shunning" policy creates potential absurd situations like this: an active JW is 'allowed' to talk to a work colleague who is a self-confessed satanist or staunch atheist/anti-religionist with an 'unscriptural' lifestyle, yet they are not 'allowed' to talk to a next-door neighbour who is a baptised JW who still believes in Jehovah, Jesus, the Bible, etc, but was disfellowshipped for a relatively minor sin or for a procedural reason.

2) In Paul's letters he wrote a number of times to warn brothers about the association they were having with some less reputable members of the congregation. In the letters to the congregations at the start of Revelation Jesus also warns some about tolerating the influence of "Jezebel". These were not people outside the congregation, but supposed 'brothers'. These warnings suggest that the early Christians did not apply total shunning but were free to an extent to apply discretion and their conscience in who they interacted with, otherwise why would they have to be cautioned so often about going too far in association?

Compare with today's JWs where it's rare for warnings about associating with the disfellowshipped to have to be mentioned because the total shunning policy is so rigorously enforced. (It does happen of course, but not often across an org of 8m people worldwide.)

Bottom line: the problem is not the concept of disfellowshipping, it's the policy of "total shunning". Total shunning does not have real support from the scriptures and it's also that that causes so much distress and harm.

16

Is Disfellowshipping properly legislated?

by Rattigan350 in

in the insight book under expelling, it refers to 1 cor 5 and titus 3 and 2 thess 3 as the basis for disfellowshipping.they've often said that the governing body was stated in acts 15 of the apostles and older men.

however, why was there no decree or letter issued by the governing body or apostles and older men and sent out to the congregations, detailing the principles of disfellowshipping?

it is all paul.

Journeyman

So, why is a doctrine and procedure created based on only what Paul said?

One the one hand, one could see this as Paul speaking off his own bat. On the other, he could simply have been formalising what was a de facto situation/arrangement.

There is no record of any dissent from Paul's view on this, unlike in other areas where it is recorded that there were heated debates and votes by older men to decide what should be done.

I think the question revolves more around, not if disfellowshipping of some sort should ever happen, but what exactly it should involve.

As Fisherman said, there is nothing odd about the idea of expelling someone from a group if they refuse to follow its 'rules' and will not be a peaceful or orderly member of the group. That's normal in all sorts of settings.

However, the question comes with how that person should be treated afterwards.

Based on the Scriptures, it seems that that depends on exactly why the person left or was disfellowshipped in the first place.

In my opinion, when we compare what the scriptures say about how Jesus acted around his enemies, how we should treat family members including unbelieving marriage mates, and also the verses that Christians are encouraged to "exhort" the disorderly and the weak, it seems that the current JW policy of total shunning in all cases appears to "go beyond what is written".

In hinges much more on whether the disfellowshipped person has taken a stand against Jesus or become an "antichrist" or opposer, possibly introducing contradictory teachings about Christ's role, such as denying the resurrection. That is the context in which Paul says Christians should "not even say a greeting" to such ones, but not in every kind of case where someone leaves the congregation.

Again, the context also seems to show that "disfellowshipping" is much more about not inviting the person into your home for fellowship or sharing in worship with them, rather than literally acting as though they are dead, such as the way JW videos show parents ignoring desperate phone calls from children or vice versa.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

WHY KIM WHY?????

6820 - only two things missing to make that an epic meme: the dodgy bleached hair and the neckbeard!

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

6820 - I don't know if that's a genuine account or not, but either way his offer makes him sound desperate for content. Surely not!

Kim - I just spilled my tea and it's all your fault!

6

If Carey W. Barber were still alive, he'd be in this picture waving the book he sold Muhammad Ali.

by was a new boy in

a pioneer sister, from a neighboring congregation, told us back in 1972, the visiting co, carey w. barber was working their territory and went in to ali's training camp.

ali was working out in the ring while barber preached to him.

the 'campaign' was the peace and security book.. .

Journeyman

But he did have some links with Jehovah's Witnesses.

True. I know several brothers who would make a point about that, which in a way is exactly what I'm talking about. Because he had some link with JWs, he was often talked about in more reverential terms, which seems somewhat contrary to the supposed "impartiality" and "neutrality" in the doctrine.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

So while he's been pratting around writing and performing awful songs and posting unrelated stuff on Twitter and pointless "sushi" clips on YouTube, in the past fortnight he's missed all of the following that his supposed "career" should have had him at the forefront of:

- Rebekah Vardy documentary (Ok, that's not very significant in the scheme of things, but still...)
- Cancelled convention video leaks
- Cancelled AMIII talk video leak
- The title of the brochures in the "secret" consignment to congregations (assuming that leak proves legit, we've yet to see the actual contents)
- Regional Convention rebuttals (ExJWCaleb has so far beaten him to Day 1)

So much for his "life-saving" activism being sooo important, and him being so busy with it!

6

If Carey W. Barber were still alive, he'd be in this picture waving the book he sold Muhammad Ali.

by was a new boy in

a pioneer sister, from a neighboring congregation, told us back in 1972, the visiting co, carey w. barber was working their territory and went in to ali's training camp.

ali was working out in the ring while barber preached to him.

the 'campaign' was the peace and security book.. .

Journeyman

Interesting experiences.

Given that Ali's profession was one that is not in line with scriptural principles, why was Barber repeatedly talking of having met the man? Also, isn't that promoting a "worldly" celebrity?

Funny how COs, members of the GB and their inner circle ("helpers", etc) can get away with things that ordinary elders and lowly publishers would probably get counselled (and sometimes even have "privileges" removed) for.

Funny also how some "worldly" people get a pass to be included in "spiritual" talks and conversations if they're considered "revered" enough. I noticed the same about Nelson Mandela - a lot of brothers would talk and act as though the man was a member of the anointed or had some kind of special status, when in scriptural terms he was just another politician.