Posts by mariu

25

What happened to the "Witness" part of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by donny in

i just got back from my afternoon walk/run and about a block from home i saw two sets of jw's going door to door handing out invites to the memorial.. the first pair walked past me and only said "good afternoon" as they passed.. about two minutes later the second pair approached me and handed me an invite to 2014 memorial on april 14. i asked them why they chose the jw's as their church of choice and was told "we'd like to chat more but we have a set number of invites we have to get out before the memorial.

if you contact the kingdom hall listed here, they will tell you more... on how god's kingdom will rid the world of satan and the evil associated with him.".

i replied "you can't talk now?".

mariu

Last time I got a memorial invite at the door, they basically slapped the leaflet into my hand, mumbled a quick thankyougoodbye the same moment and turned on their heels. I didn't even have a chance to get a word in. (Not that I wanted to.) What a fine witness! Those were men in their 30s, which you'd expect to be really active in the service.

The only other time I ever see JWs in "service" is at public transport stations. They're usually positioned so that nobody would ever stop for them. They hold up a bunch of magazines tightly to their chest, clipped together to show the title in various languages, definitely not in a way that you would feel invited to actually take one. Most of the time it's elderly immigrant ladies silently staring at the opposite wall with a grumpy face or busy talking amongst themselves. The whole thing is just bizarre and an utterly pointless waste of time.

I mean, I can somehow wrap my head around the door-to-door idea, biblical or not, but whoever claimed that the 1st century Christians stood on street corners passively waiting for people to approach them to find "The Truth"?

They should consider selling kebabs or something. Then at least they'd talk to people.

52

Has a critical mass of exJWs been reached?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

it took the better part of 15 years but i believe we have finally arrived at that point where there is now a critical mass of former witnesses.. thousands of exjws come together on forums like this one and discuss findings, ideas and research.

there have been documentaries and even a movie made about life in the jehovah's witnesses.. ex jw websites, online forums, and discussion boards that set the wheels in motion in the early to late 90s have matured into powerful tools of social change within the organization.. the lies and false doctines taught by the watchtower bible & tract society are plainly accessible with just a cursory google search.. active elders leak boe letters, often weeks before they hit the notice board in a kingdom hall.. social media has allowed exjws to connect with those still in as well as those who have left.. the society have no game plan because information is power and they have lost the information war.

all they can do is cry wolf and warn the rank and file not to listen to apostates.. i don't know what future the society will face in the next ten years, but changing world events, social trends, and reactionary change from headquarters based on their own faulty biblical chronology has got them cornered like a raging animal.. it doesn't look good..

mariu

I like the comparison to the Catholic Church. Sure, it's still around, but it's nowhere near the all-powerful organisation of the Middle Ages that meddled with (and in many cases steered) the fate of nations and their people. In first-world countries, it's just a social club with funny rituals and a dwindling membership that doesn't even bother to attend mass weekly and openly disagrees with a large part of doctrine. In developing countries, it's more relevant but just one of many religious organisations to choose from.

The Watchtower's growth has always been more horizontal (i.e. spreading out to more countries) than vertical (getting a large market share in one country). In what is usually called the "developed world" they've pretty much reached saturation point about 20 years ago. Growth occurs only in small pockets, mostly of immigrants, and rarely exceeds population growth. Even formerly promised lands like Eastern Europe are now stalling after a short phase of growth without ever reaching the levels in the West. Baptisms are dropping fast.

In other countries, they can still grow for many many years. South America and Mexico are booming now, though that will likely taper off soon as that's been the general pattern. But there are vast areas like India and China where they basically don't exist yet and could still lure in the usual 0.1-0.3% of the population. We're talking about billions of people there.

Unless there's a major split at the top, they'll be around for a long time. They'll change, as they've always done. But in the countries where most people on this board are presumably living, they will slowly become irrelevant. Just because a few ex-members get together on a forum like this doesn't change it a bit - to the general population, this cult as well as its former members aren't worth a thought. Heck, how many non-JWs have the slightest clue about JW doctrine, despite all the millions of hours of door-knocking? How many can even tell a Mormon and a JW apart? Nobody has an idea except that they're some sort of Christian fundamentalist group, like thousands others.

52

Has a critical mass of exJWs been reached?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

it took the better part of 15 years but i believe we have finally arrived at that point where there is now a critical mass of former witnesses.. thousands of exjws come together on forums like this one and discuss findings, ideas and research.

there have been documentaries and even a movie made about life in the jehovah's witnesses.. ex jw websites, online forums, and discussion boards that set the wheels in motion in the early to late 90s have matured into powerful tools of social change within the organization.. the lies and false doctines taught by the watchtower bible & tract society are plainly accessible with just a cursory google search.. active elders leak boe letters, often weeks before they hit the notice board in a kingdom hall.. social media has allowed exjws to connect with those still in as well as those who have left.. the society have no game plan because information is power and they have lost the information war.

all they can do is cry wolf and warn the rank and file not to listen to apostates.. i don't know what future the society will face in the next ten years, but changing world events, social trends, and reactionary change from headquarters based on their own faulty biblical chronology has got them cornered like a raging animal.. it doesn't look good..

mariu

Well, I read predictions of the imminent implosion of the WTS "because of the Internet" well over a decade ago. Didn't happen so far.

That said, and taking a step back, it's obvious that the situation is very very different from 20 years ago. It's become dramatically easier to connect with ex-JWs. There's an abundance of information for people with doubts or on the way out (or on the way in, for that matter). The whole cult approach of restricting information and isolating apostates doesn't work any longer.

This, coupled with a growing apathy towards religion in most developed countries, translates to stagnation in the Watchtower world. This organisation is nothing like the successful competitor to mainstream churches it used to be. And those times aren't coming back.

At least in the "Western world", looking at the strong trend of fewer and fewer baptisms since the 1990s, I see them slowly shrinking over the next decades. I don't see an implosion at all. Hardcore members will keep hanging on, and even small and stagnant religious groups can live pretty much indefinitely.

BTW, one interesting phenomenon I see fairly recently are "demi-apostates". That is, people who are somewhat half-believing. They choose to stay in the org despite some major flaws they see, they think the WTS still has some/many things right, yet post on ex-JW forums without regrets. According to the WTS, such people shouldn't even exist. Goes to show that they're losing more and more control.

33

Special Assembly Day - tepid applause

by sir82 in

jw
friends

just got back from a recent sad.. after most talks, the applause was, at most, tepid.. it was striking in its tepidity, if that is possible (and if that is a word).. affter most talks, applause lasted literally no more than 5 seconds.

its volume was scarcely above a whisper.. it wasn't acoustics - the bethel speaker was technically a polished speaker (although presenting the same old boring info), and his talks generated noticeably louder applause.

but even still - that applause was maybe 10 seconds, and about normal-conversation level.. but local speakers - the applause was not much more loud than the hum coming from your refrigerator.. there were 1300+ people there.. it was just so weird - my previous large-group experience was at the agm, where people were nearly apoplectic & drooling with delight over their new "silver bibles" (which very few have read, i'd wager).. these guys were just "zombified".. speaking of bibles - bethel dude called it a "platinum bible".

mariu

I've got to admit that I don't understand how it's possible that baptisms keep dropping and dropping in some places since the 1990s (most of Europe for instance, where baptisms have shrunk to a third of what they were in the early 1990s), but publisher counts remain pretty much stable throughout. Sometimes even a one-percent growth is seen.

I used to think that the publisher numbers were reliable (as opposed to the preaching hours), but maybe I'm too naive.

22

Top evolution researchers agree: There is A Creator! The Watchtower is Right!

by mariu in

jw
friends

okay, it's just one scientist: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201404/frederic-dumoulin-interview/.

but he's a very eminent one!.

for more than a decade, frederic dumoulin has worked in the field of pharmaceutical research ... studied the effects of medications and toxins on living creatures ... such design simply could not have evolved.

mariu

appeal to personal incredulity, much?

That's been their standard line of argumentation since, well, always. It's complex so God must have made it. And it reminds me of one of my favourite quotes:

It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible .

--Eric Hoffer, "The True Believer"

Anyway, at least this time they didn't quote an unnamed "renowned scientist" who turns out, on closer inspection, to be a whacky young-earth creationist with a PhD in Divinity from a degree mill in Mexico.

22

Top evolution researchers agree: There is A Creator! The Watchtower is Right!

by mariu in

jw
friends

okay, it's just one scientist: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201404/frederic-dumoulin-interview/.

but he's a very eminent one!.

for more than a decade, frederic dumoulin has worked in the field of pharmaceutical research ... studied the effects of medications and toxins on living creatures ... such design simply could not have evolved.

mariu

He doesn't even seem to be able to differentiate between abiogenesis and evolution.

Which is standard procedure for the Watchtower. Can't have this guy contradict them.

22

Top evolution researchers agree: There is A Creator! The Watchtower is Right!

by mariu in

jw
friends

okay, it's just one scientist: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201404/frederic-dumoulin-interview/.

but he's a very eminent one!.

for more than a decade, frederic dumoulin has worked in the field of pharmaceutical research ... studied the effects of medications and toxins on living creatures ... such design simply could not have evolved.

mariu

While it's not stated clearly, his answers seem to imply that he dropped out of university upon learning "The Truth", settling for this lab technician job instead. Which would make him an even better example for the brothers.

If he's not married yet, I bet single sisters in congregations world-wide are dying to meet this guy at the next international convention!

22

Top evolution researchers agree: There is A Creator! The Watchtower is Right!

by mariu in

jw
friends

okay, it's just one scientist: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201404/frederic-dumoulin-interview/.

but he's a very eminent one!.

for more than a decade, frederic dumoulin has worked in the field of pharmaceutical research ... studied the effects of medications and toxins on living creatures ... such design simply could not have evolved.

mariu

Dis-member, I'm beginning to suspect you've been reading apostate material. The elders will give you any spiritual assistance you need, just ask!

22

Top evolution researchers agree: There is A Creator! The Watchtower is Right!

by mariu in

jw
friends

okay, it's just one scientist: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201404/frederic-dumoulin-interview/.

but he's a very eminent one!.

for more than a decade, frederic dumoulin has worked in the field of pharmaceutical research ... studied the effects of medications and toxins on living creatures ... such design simply could not have evolved.

mariu

Okay, it's just one scientist: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201404/frederic-dumoulin-interview/

But he's a very eminent one!

For more than a decade, Frédéric Dumoulin has worked in the field of pharmaceutical research ... studied the effects of medications and toxins on living creatures ... such design simply could not have evolved

Okay, he's not an evolution researcher. But he's working in science. He's got a white lab coat to prove it!

Okay, admitted, he may just be a lab assistant without so much as a university degree.

http://www.ugent.be/fw/en/research/bioanalysis/foodanal/Staff

http://www.ugent.be/fw/en/research/bioanalysis/foodanal/Staff/people?ugentid=801001590857 (a "laborant" needs three years of vocational school)

But remember kids, higher education is bad anyway!

33

Morris in Italy

by Achille in

morris in italy, january 5, 2014. http://forum.infotdgeova.it/viewtopic.php?p=281371#p281371.

mariu

http://translate.google.com and you should understand the gist of it.