watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself.
parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy.
no thing has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge.
Yes, it appears while aging the universe by it's material, the far older "substance" in the "nothingness" the matter of the universe is "within" has slipped off their radar.
Yet even nothing can't simply be created from nothing, even nothing must have a Creator. LOL
"Nothing" is actually "something".
most of us left the organisation because we could no longer stand one or other aspect of it, perhaps its very dictatorial administration, the disappointment due to the false promises and vain hopes raised by its leadership, disagreement with the blood ban or pedophile and shunning policies, the feel one gets that this is a business and not a religious organisation manipulating its members to its own profit etc etc.
these are of course valid reasons for rejecting this religion and refusing to identify with it but do the jws who stay in have a valid argument for rejecting leaving the org?
they will say: "ok our religion, our society has its flaws but what human society doesn't?
And true, as you said in another way, a purification must also occur for JW xJW and nonJW accessibility easily to undeserved kindness reality.
most of us left the organisation because we could no longer stand one or other aspect of it, perhaps its very dictatorial administration, the disappointment due to the false promises and vain hopes raised by its leadership, disagreement with the blood ban or pedophile and shunning policies, the feel one gets that this is a business and not a religious organisation manipulating its members to its own profit etc etc.
these are of course valid reasons for rejecting this religion and refusing to identify with it but do the jws who stay in have a valid argument for rejecting leaving the org?
they will say: "ok our religion, our society has its flaws but what human society doesn't?
It becomes a matter of conscience based on personal determination of the Bethel magnitude of sin. I do not know how experienced, or supposedly scipturally experienced JWs, in belief the org is God's express property, think God will accpet a "library card" excuse for a Bethel UN NGO night of escort services to the most intimtate of places, supposedly, to God.
A truly discerning Christian would understand Matt24:15 is now present right at Bethel. And to make matters worse, Bethel did that UN NGO thingy secretly and still maintains secrecy so most JWs have never been officially informed of the UN NGO affair or that the GB is main organ of it's infection.
And worse still, unlike JWs of 1919 and 1945 expunding 2 UN placements as prophecy, the modern Bethel subversion center instead conceals King North as 8th King in Dan11:30-45, and instead COVERS UP the 3rd (1990) and 4th (future) UN placements in that required continual (Dan11:36) sequence, as if a defunct USSR is "king north".
For a JW actually claiming to be Christian, it is impossible to then share in (Zech3:3) these Bethel apostasy sins; (2Thess2:3; Dan11:32a);
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But as we know, many JWs are plainly in no awareness of the actual magnitude of the current Bethel apostasy, if they knew it was apostasy maybe they would flee as Jesus commanded.
But too, as we know, JWs are hypnotized with therapeutic minutia, over and over, as if it is 1940 in JWland, and that mrely maintains the illusion the 12 apostles are in the GB, and not Satan and the demons instead; (2Cor11:13-15).
Thus JW personal awareness dictates whether they would remain or not. In full awareness of the demonic nature of Bethel's subversion, one would flee automatically. In the meantime the ship is sinking, and the GB will attempt to drag as many down with them "at that time" (WT 11/15/13, pg.20, par. 17, #3), and that is why the JW organizational "ark of salvation", is now transformed into actually a JW spider web that has potential of also being a death trap in certain developments, obbviously planned, obviously known in that **"at that time" statement Bethel slips out as if they know most definitely:
The Watchtower 11/15/2013 statement:
“”Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered:…
...
(3) **At that time, the lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. “”
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Thus in my opinion, there is no good reason to remain in an obviously corrupted and dangerous organization. Others ave to put the big picture together for themselves in time.
most of the time i just lurk .
lots of times throughout the day.
however, something has come up that i would like some advice on, especially from members who were exiting the jw religion with young children.. .
Tell him the truth, though all men be found liars, like Bethel's current leadership, let God be found true. There is the Almighty God forever, human corruption is endemic since Eden's sin, God provided PROMISE of the seed of recovery (Gen3:15), and that is still TRUTH, the truth. God tracked all that development of sovereign rival power, and his own Kingdom forming power through Daniel and to the apostle John and all the prophets for a good 2800 years of prophecy so accurate, it is now called world history.
Jesus Christ, the seed, the true solution, the first life created by God, from God, is also still true and the only true hope to retrieve men past, present and future from inevitable death in Adam. That is all still true, neither Christendom, Bethel or any other human organized diversion from truth can change reality that is actually true.
Thus tell your son the truth. Bethel's primary leaders are now corrupted, they joined the opposing kingdom power as UN NGO, that will bring a judgment on JWs for that transgression (Dan8:13 as 1Pet4:17), and they will reap what they have sown, it is also foretold in prophecy they cover up (Dan8:12b) and truthfully, they no longer represent the truth (2Thess2:10-11), instead they drive millions and millions AWAY from God, but God, as before on several documented occasions of prophecy again becoming history will recover the final truth, again (Rev10:11; 2Thess2:8).
You may get to the core of the dilemma, ask your son does he want to be taught about God and Christ by lawless corrupted men in the so-called Governing Body?
And I feel you can ask that question quite honestly while still maintaining core Christian truth, that truly at one time, 1914-1950 IBSA and JWs did at once truthfully represent as best they could, and they did expose the first 2 UN related fulfillments of prophecy in 1919 and 1945, rather than joining the UN, and covering up the 3rd (1990) and 4th (future) UN manifestations of Daniel 11:30-45, as Bethel also covers up King North as 8th King developments there, as their continual UN NGO internal Bethel endorsers are also prophetic subverters.
You may explain, truthfully, Jesus Christ warns Christians to flee the city (organization) once one personally ascertains the rival kingdom "disgusting thing" in it's midst, and in principle that applies to Bethel as UN NGO and the JW organization overall:
(Matthew 24:15-16) “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation (UN NGO), as spoken of through Daniel the prophet (1990 Dan11:31b parallel to Dan8:13-14), standing in a holy place (Bethel's claim), (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in (JW worldwide) Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. (leave JWs, judgment is nigh).
In my opinion explaining these core truths of Bethel's corruption are important, and outweigh all their other sins (2Thess2:3-4) in direct guaranteed import of a judgment to come first upon JWs; (1Pet4:17).
cindy: o.k.
cindy, now read the next two verses 25 and 26.. cindy: for he must rule as king until [god] has put all enemies under his feet.
cindy: i never saw that before!.
It appears Karen also has a logical flaw, confusing a scripture about Christ's end of rulership (1Cor15:25-28), with the mistake it is a description of conditions enabling the start of Christ's rulership when it is clearly the opposite in the scripture itself - it is called "the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to God" - thus about the end, not the start, of Christ's tenure in God's Kingdom rulership.
Christ must "rule as king until" death is placed beneath his feet, which implies Christ is king while that process of the conquest of death is in action, until that anti-death process is complete, until that time and condition is met Christ is active King. (Heb2:14).
Thus 1Cor15:25-26 in not a description of conditions of Christ's starting to rule, but the requirement of the conquest concluding his rule, as next he hands that full kingdom sovereignty, deathless now, to God. Plainly he rules (is thus king) until... said objective is met. And plainly Christ cannot hand back a Kingdom and start to rule that kingdom at the same time. In Karen's logic there would be no rule of Christ whatsoever if the removal of death was a sign of Christ starting to rule, for immediately he hands back the Kingdom to God, he thus never rules in that brief interim in Karen's logic.
Thus as Karen says: "if Christ could not start ruling until God had put all his enemies under his feet", is in itself an error of logic, what the scripture actually implies is "if Christ could not STOP ruling until God had put all his enemies under his feet"...
Clearly in the scripture the point is Christ could not cease rulership until all his enemies were underfoot. 1Cor15:24-28 is not about Christ beginning rulership, but the met objectives signaling his end of rulership as then subjecting himself and kingdom rule to God the ultimate King.
Thus with initial flawed logic, of course the further conclusions Karen draws are also incorrect in that particular attempt of "proof". It is apparent in 1Cor15:24-28 Christ is in active rulership as the primary Kingly power deposing all his enemies in Messianic earth related sovereign context which conclusion of rulership is signaled by the full deposition of all his enemies. Then already ruling, he ceases rulership and hands the Kingdom back to God, the one who subjected all things to Christ.
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I say this not to back Bethel attempts at being valid, but to aid people's awareness of the difference between God's Kingdom and the more recent Messianic Kingdom agency with external to heaven sovereign focus of earth and the universe. (Dan2:31-45).
God's Kingdom will end up ruling all things heavenly and otherwise, the Messianic Kingdom is not a sovereign agency of the rulership of heaven, but of earth. (Rev5:10; Ps2) and physical universe taken from demon rulership; (Eph6:12; Isa24:21-22) And the Messianic Kingdom is not the Kingdom Christ is handing back to God (Rev22:5), Christ is handing back God's Kingdom back to God. This is because ONLY the Christ "son of David" will forever rule the Messianic Kingdom, and only God will in time fully rule his Kingdom he temporarily subjects to Christ in that heavenly aspect to aid empowerment of the Messianic Kingdom earthly sovereignty, not yet complete. (Like it's birth in Rev12, and completion in Rev14) Of course as before, the Messianic Kingdom and Son, are subject to God's supremacy; (Rev22:5). They will rule forever as such unity.
So Christ has yet to be made Messianic Kingdom King-Priest (Zech4:6-9; 6:9-15), but is now the Rev12:1 "crown" of God's "woman" in heavenly authority of God's Kingdom signaled by Rev12:10 removal of Satan and the demons from the heavenly domain as "the authority of God's Christ" completed in that heavenly authority event of Satan's expulsion. That is the Kingdom, God's Kingdom overall, that Christ had to assume at appointed times expiration as ruler, yet not in an earthly focused completed super-sovereignty, but heavenly first, to oversee the Armageddon prelude completion of the Messianic Kingdom, and to be coronated King-Priest by God in the then also completed 8th King's face. (Rev19:11-21).
Bethel obscures all these details, because they are not Christian in the GB, much less genuine anointed of God. They are "man of lawlessness" "set in opposition" "in the temple" as a signal of 2Thess2:1-2 final phase of Messianic Kingdom completion final "gathering" and appearance of Christ "in the temple" as well, as Mal3:1-4, Zech3:1-5, 2Thess2:8 to remove the Bethel profanations prior to actual Armageddon. (1Pet4:17; Dan8:13-14). In fact the Dan8:14 + Dan12:7 timed periods, at least, prior to Armageddon divine war phase.
i have the elders coming to my home soon and need help finding a watchtower where thay stated that the regular publishers were also prophets, i think it came out about 2007 i think but not sure..
We need to use basic logic here, as Bethel has none. A prophet and an interpreter of propecy are not the same thing, they are separate things entirely. The only prophets are people who foretell future events before they occur from no previous prophecy. Most Bible prophets, if not all, understood almost nothing of the prophecy they recorded.
Like Daniel, who just went through the first temple desolation, was now foretelling another temple desolation, even before the next temple was rebuilt! No wonder he was exhausted!
But Daniel knew nothing of the detailed meaning of the prophecy.
As per 2Pet1:19-21, an interpretation that is accurate, must come from God. So an interpretation of accuracy initially must be opened by God, such as recognizing a nucleus of human world government (in the League of Nations as Rev13:11-15) is unique and indeed ominous if in fact Christ is the appointed world ruler to come. That means a conflict will occur as both complete kingdom.
So is the interpretation of Rev13:11-15 correct in world government formative manifestation as an "image" or nucleus of that kind of globalized world power?
People have to make their own decision.
At the churches Rev13:11-15 has many interpretations, none of which must offend their allegiance to the League, still maintained. With JWs, they have a similar agreement with the UN as UN NGO. And like the church interpreters not signing off on IBSA interpretations of Revelation 13, JWs do not reveal the UN 8th King as King North of the 3rd UN placement of 1990 at Daniel 11:31b either. (As Bethel too, made agreement in tangent with a UN worldwide manifestation and fulfillment of prophecy, like 1919 with Christendom cleric councils).
So Bethel or JWs cannot be prophets by logical default explained here, and are not valid interpreters either, for like their twin sister world government escorts of 1919, today's Bethel UN escort service has JWs concealing King North identity as if the USSR "places the [UN] disgusting thing", which is of course impossible and thus a falsehood now maintained as Bethel prophetic interpretive policy.
Thus distinguishing a prophet who spoke things he/she did not understand, and an interpreter who can make true or false explanations of prophecy is important to logically understand to easily disqualify post 1945 JWs at 1990 evidence as never prophet, but merely false interpreters.
JWs did expound the 2nd UN placement as prophecy of Rev17:8-11. But again, one has to make their own determination of it's validity in both those first two UN placements JWs explained as others covered it up with various false interpretations in relation to JWs view of their 1945 veracity.
But now what is a UN 1-2-3-4 continuum when we include Daniel 11:30-45 final two UN placements (1990; future) as 3rd and 4th renditions, with the JW expounded first two UN placements of 1919 and 1945, we no longer have a valid 1-2-3-4 continuum to implied Armageddon (Dan11:45), because in 1990 JWs went UN NGO, and could not explain Daniel 11:27-45 properly so as not to betray their UN allies by proper exposition of that 1990 post "cold war" (Dan11:29) 3rd UN placement of actual Daniel 11:30-31 intrigues at Bethel in UN collusion.
The Bethel self-incrimination in that prophecy, hence it's diversion, is fairly obvious in the prophecy in the UN NGO itself, not to mention the diversion of interpretation later, as church central clerics did the same thing in 1919 and 1945.
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So JWs are not prophets or valid interpreters, because even the Daniel 11:44, now delusion of "attack", "to fulfill next brothers", is based on USSR fiction. And that USSR fictional position in the prophecy is advanced too far into Daniel 11 as far as the overall 8th King globalization process. Thus as Daniel 11:42-43 obvious coming global debt intrigues ends in a national collective pawning to subservience as captured "King South" wealth and finances, by a globalized 8th King "King North" credit and finance system, JWs will think those intrigues are Daniel 11:44; prematurely.
And thus the internal UN operation at Bethel, obvious in it's allegiance (UN NGO) and interpretive diversions, can then implode Bethel financially in the same worldwide context of debt and investment meltdowns, and the 8th King can proceed with Daniel 11:42-45 to 4th UN placement as also full international government - and JWs will be sold a brilliant hoax "interpretive" "explanation" already in place for such use.
Now the UN 1-2-3-4 super-cycle since 1919 can then complete with no obstruction as to Bible prophecy, and place a fully functioning world government (Dan11:45; 8:25; 12:11) like a decade into that final cycle, with no potential JW problem, or aid, as JWs already aided the UN development to even get this far with no prophetic exposure, and misapplied prophecy to aid the JW delusions.
In a way, JWs are prophets now.
In fact the Bethel theology is so well engineered, JWs are now "self fulfilling prophets" as a purposeful interpretive deception is obviously at work in JWs in marked manner since 1990 and the USSR deposition which of course renders King North impossible as per Dan11:36 to fulfill in the USSR, so that error must be purposely maintained to position JWs psychologically at Daniel 11:44, which can be very useful later to finish off the JW organization as JWs actually expect that desolation in their "self fulfilling prophecy".
Only problem is it will not be Daniel 11:44, or the desolation JWs think is in action, and by the time they figure it out, of course it will be way too late, the 8th King will be pedal to the metal towards world government having just run over JWs as the latest road kill in that roughly ten year trip to 4th UN placement.
So yes, Bethel does have self-fulfilling prophets foretelling the JW future for the 8th King. And Bethel does have prophetic interpreters engineering JW theology to hoax JWs. And like 1919, it all has a clear tie in to UN related organizational operations at Bethel, signaled in the UN NGO. And in this unique case the "prophet" and the "interpreter" is the GB. In most cases prophet and interpreter are separate functions and entities.
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Of course that's my "interpretation", people have to make their own determinations. Bethel though, is a defunct visionary, as many do agree now.
read this in another thread,,,,,,,,,feb 2014 wt.
there, they cast doubt on the application of daniel's 70 weeks prophecy to being fulfilled with christ.. "could the first-century jews have calculated the time of the messiahs arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at daniel 9:24-27 ?
while that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed.
The lawless GB are demolishing the foundational teachings of JWs, between the lines, to follow suit to the now complete transformation of the whole JW collective ministry into an aggregate "superfine apostle" cloned worldwide from GB DNA into all JWs. (2Cor11:13-15).
This is to climax in the total cessation of the JW ministry which is the spiritual desolation of JWs merely becoming literal, and it's closeness to initial activation is why the GB is now apexing thier various final blasphemies, like the GB=FDS abomination.
They are very confident now JWs will follow them anywhere and accept anything as the GB Pied Pipers prepare to jump into the grand canyon with as many JWs as possible in tow. And in the near future, it will get far more literal as to what is really at work in the GB tenure. (2Thess2:3-4). Their last 20 years of stunning fruitage should tell people and JWs what is really operating at Bethel, as some have recognized the modern center of lawlessness diverting the JW ministry into ruin.
faking of hours in field service or dragging service time out by making coffee stops or driving for hours "between" household contacts are never frowned upon, let alone mentioned, in the publications.
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yet, in each congregation of jehovah's witnesses, to one degree or another, faking hours, padding time out with coffee stops and long journeys between opportunities to "witness" are endemic practices..
It's all just part of a massively orchestrated distraction production. And it is quite effective at producing the intended diversion, which allows a more fully successful subversion, very gradual, now systemic in all it's parts and terminal. Counting minutes, hours, days, months and years, along with the various congregational and personal "gnats" to strain and "straws" to remove to please the remote rafter-eyed Lords of the Faith and their inquisitional local stars of the show caring that sin burden, has JWs focused on everything but God and Christ and actually studying the Bible. (Eph5:17).
JWs have been successfully derailed, stalled, diverted, distracted and hypnotized. It is soon time for coup-de-grace. As long as Satan and the demons appear in nice suits making grandiose hyperpious claims, JWs accept those Bethel superfine apostles as Catholics do the Pope. (2Cor11:13-15)
For this phase of JW development and history, now retrograde in everything but literal cessation of the ministry, JWs are pretty much done in spirit, and no better than the ones we point to as classic examples of unfaithfulness. The overall JW delusion complex aids the overall distraction from the overall JW spiritual reality; (Zech3:1-3).
JWs have no faith in God, plain and simple. No faith in Christ. No faith in the Word. JWs have faith diffused towards men and manmade organizational idols of gold, stone and wood - and that faith will be tested and desolated. (Dan8:13; 1Pet4:17)
A remnant is all that will come out of JWs after they are handed to their UN lovers. There was plenty of sowing at Bethel, now it is time soon for the reaper to reap some weeds.
(Jeremiah 17:5) This is what Jehovah has said: “Cursed is the able-bodied man who puts his trust in earthling man ...
a dub posted this link earlier this week.
this video aired feb 16, 2011 as pointed out by one of the commenters.
it's amazing though how many witnesses lack the ability to scrutinize the information presented, and go check the data for themselves.. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=206101939577972.
Under GB tenure JWs have lost 500% overall aggregate growth percentage ratio, meaning it has dropped atleast 10% under the Bethel pirates. So what is actually the fastest growing element of the JW religion is stumbled and lost JWs, as that 10% loss equates to lost potential JWs. Things like pedophile protection program and UN NGO have probably stumbled 5 to 10 million people in a decade.
Like CEOs purposely driving a corporation into the ground, the GB sells this downward spiral as "record growth", when in comparison to JW histporic numbers it is an appaling plummet, signs of Bethel reproach and rampant lawlessness. It's like modern CEOs of a beer company losing 10% market share of suds in a decade, and telling the stock holders, "everyting is just fine, it's at apex y'all!".
What is at apex is Bethel's campaign driving people away from the Bible.
this is a reply ireceived from a poster on another forum.
"actually the vast majority of interpretations of prophecy are absolutely spot on.. .
people harp on over this and that that was wrong 50 years ago, but today jehovah's witnesses have all the bible's prophecies pretty much figured out in their entirety.. .
In reality of world history all the national progressions of Dan2, 7, 8, 11 and Rev13 and 17 are now history. In fact other religions who recognize the meaning of international government as the United Nation nucleus borrow classic IBSA and JW prophetic interpretation.
But JWs have now not clued their audience, or themselves in on the fact globalist world government is the final culmination of Dan2, 7, 8, 11 and Rev17. In fact Rev 17:12-18 is a an internationalization of world government based on sovereign transfer of national "power and authority" as per Daniel 11:42-45. (equalling Rev16:13-16 apex)
JWs also cover up now as UN NGO Daniel 11:30-45 which completes the last 2 UN placements since 1990. Thus JWs are not making the connection the UN nucleus will become a world government in about a decade, and that is Armageddon's trigger event as per Dan8:25, 11:45, Dan 12:11.
The real UN super-cycle is a 1-2-3-4 manifestation in 1919, 1945, 1990 and the future.
So JWs do have an easily verified Dan2, 7, 8, Rev13 understanding as far as national world power progression in that contunuum of prophecy. But the completed symbols, like the WHOLE Daniel 2 "immense image", and the WHOLE "scarlet wildbeast" 8th King denote an international unification of ALL national world powers into a world government, which is also King North and King of Fierce Countenance final meanings: 8th King world government.
That is the only part of those prophecies yet to manifest over the Dan11:42-45 King North UN world government cycle, that JWs now cover up by Bethel pro UN, UN NGO activities. (In other words Bethel is a UN subversion agency).
Rev17:12-18 and Dan11:30-45 are all UN world government. JWs think the UN schematic is the end all form of world power, which is premature. The next financial collapse cycle of national powers will culminate as Daniel 11:42-43, which will lead in time to Daniel 11:44-45. The national worldwide debt crisis already sets up internationalized finance and monetary system deployment. (Dan11:42-43 in other words).
A required world event(s), in my opinion, will catalyze that cycle and accelerate the national bankruptcy cycle that will end in 8th King overall recievership as per Dan11:42-43. That will facilitate an international world order of government. (Dan11:42-45 + Rev17:12-18 = Rev16:13-16)
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"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
- David Rockefeller.
