Posts by undercover

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

undercover

I find it interesting that we have 3-4 varying opinions expressed here. There are disagreements among us on what we think is true or what we believe is happening. This is a good thing. Hearing varying viewpoints gives me something to think about. It helps me to reason and consider more than one viewpoint. Can a JW do that? Can a car load of JWs in service discuss, disagree and debate about whether a world wide flood did or did not take place? Can they discuss, disagree and debate about whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 or 587? Can they discuss and debate doctrine? I think we know the answer to that one.

Information is controlled. Open discussion and debate is not tolerated. Questioning and doubting are considered signs of weakness. To me that is a control issue. They are attempting to control what you think, what you believe, how you will treat others. It's not "mind control" like in a B-grade science fiction movie.

Yes, most religions do this in some form or another. Some are more controlling than others. But those religions are interested in controlling its members. Religion is a cult.

40

Just what constitutes a "good seat" at an assembly?

by xjw_b12 in

blondies post on an earlier thread re the gate crashers at the assemblies running to "save" the best seats got me to thinking..

just what constitutes a "good seat" at an assembly?

i've never quite understood that.

undercover

I had the unfortunate experience of having to go save seats at opening time once. I remember almost getting knocked to the ground by the so-called "elderly and infirm" as they raced to the "best" seats. I swore right then that I would never do that again. I caught grief from family the next year because I refused to it. After my wife did it a couple of times(and saw for herself), I heard no more about it.

Two things that got me about the whole seating thing:

One: I've never seen a DC sell out. Of the ones that I remember going to over the last 20 years, the coliseum or venue used held 3,000 to 5,000 more people than ever showed up for the DC. So what's the big deal about saving seats and trying to find a "good" seat? There's nothing to really watch, 'cept for the drama. Field glasses work pretty good for that.

Two: The infirm aren't really so infirm. At one convention site, the elderly and infirm seating was the bottom 2-3 rows, on the floor, same level as the stage. The whole bottom half of the coliseum was aged 60+. They made sure that they got the good seats down low. Anybody under 50 seating on the bottom few rows was made to feel very out of place. The venue changed so many years ago and in the new coliseum, the elderly and infirm seating was the top 2-3 rows of the lower section. No stairs to climb. No elevators to use. Where did all the elderly sit? The bottom 2-3 rows. Only the truly handicapped and infirm sat on the top rows. All the other octogenarians with a spring in their step made it down the steps to the good seats.

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

undercover

I had a nice long post, but sumthin happened and it didn't work, oh well.

Anyway, I see your point and it has merit. I have mixed feelings on this subject. I see both sides. But having been in the organization, I see the tactics used to control how the JWs think, act, even speak. Maybe we can't blame everything wrong in our life on the WTS, but they have lied, deceived and played God to millions of people. I see that now and they won't control me anymore. From here on, I'm on my own.

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

undercover

What I say makes sense.

Ooops, you posted on the wrong thread. The "nothing" thread is a few threads down.

I stayed in it because I was afraid - afraid of rejection by my family (especially my mother, whose conditional acceptance behavior predated her exposure to "the truth", but was magnified by it), afraid of rejection by everyone I knew, and a belief that I held no value apart from being the member of a group and couldn't make a difference in the outside world.

A good point, but, is this before or after you realized that you were duped? If you stayed in after knowing the "truth" isn't the truth, then yea, that was your own doing. But before knowing about the deception, the tactics used are to keep you duped and to keep you under their power. There, I have to go with being under their "control".

I think some of us are afraid to admit that we were under "control" like that. It makes us a little more insecure or embarrased or something.

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

undercover

Thus the control part. I see both ends of the argument and both sides have valid points. But having been there and done that, I have to agree that there is some kind of control that keeps us there. It's only when we are willing(or able) to break that control that we can be free or feel free from oppression.

Basically I agree with you, Minimus. But I understand the other side of the coin as well.

38

Do You Enjoy Being "Part of the World"???

by minimus in

jw
friends

since before a witness gets baptized, they are told to "be no part of this world".

that is beaten into everyone's head.

now that you're not a jw or are on the way out, how does being part of the "world" feel?

undercover

Well since I've been part of the "world" for a while, I feel that it's not as bad as I had been led to believe. It's nice to take an interst in just about anything, and not worry about someone looking over your shoulder, or what jw you'll accidentally run into.

Sums it up nicely.

I too realized that "worldly" people aren't as bad as I had always thought. They have good points and bad points, same as anybody else. In fact, worldly people seem easier to deal with than most JWs. They are honest in ways that most JWs aren't. While a JW may not steal, lie, cheat, etc, and some "worldly" people have no qualms against that, "worldly" people accept people for who they are. If they don't like you, you'll know it. If they like, or trust you, you'll know it. JWs on the other hand, generally speaking, have a false front. They are nice to all other JWs, even outsiders, but inside, they harbor grudges and dislikes more than any worldly person that I've been priviledged to know. And a lot of these grudges/dislikes are based on what level of service that someone has attained in the congregation.

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

undercover

I can understand Garybuss' reasoning up to a point. Minimus' point is also valid.

No one "makes" a JW do what they do. They have free will. If they don't go to a meeting or out in service, no one comes over and berates them over it. No one threatens harm for not following normal procedures. (I know that some will have experiences that may show that it does happen, but I'm speaking in generealities here).

But when a JW does not follow the norm, they feel guilt. Where does this guilt come from? The WTS. They continually press for more and more time and energy spent in the "kingdom work". This work is for Jehovah. If you're not willing to do it for him, then something is wrong. This is a form of trying to control their thinking and reasoning so I guess you can call it "mind control".

Many of us that were raised in "the truth" have to know that mind control is what kept us as JWs even as adults. I have always been fairly independant and self-reliant, even as a JW. I could usually see through most bogus schemes and such. I like to think for myself and not accept something just because somebody said so. But, yet, I remained a JW for over 20 years of my adult life. Nobody made me. I could have walked away. But I thought I was doing the right thing. Despite all my self-independance and free-thinking, it took me years to realize something was amiss. I would have never bought into this religion by someone knocking on my door, but because I was "indoctrinated" from youth up, I bought it. I was controlled.

27

The 9/8 Awake - Well Crafted Deception!

by metatron in

jw
friends

the sept. 8, 03 awake contains an article about a disaster in ecuador.. on page 14 it says, regarding witness volunteer efforts, "by saturday evening,.

approximately 200 volunteers from local congregations had sealed the windows of 91. witness homes.

many non-witnesses also benefited.

undercover

This reminds me of a local flood here about 15 years ago. In my mother's congregation one of the elder's homes was flooded, his wife was not and still is not a JW. Practically half the congregation showed up at his place to help mop up. The comments I heard from several of the dubs was how this display of "true Christian love" would soften the attitude of the elder's wife and - who knows? - maybe she'd start studying with the dubs.

Your story reminded me of when we had tornados in one area where I lived years ago. Many of the friends houses were damaged or lost trees. I remember calling around trying to find a chainsaw to borrow to cut up the trees in our yard. Everyone I talked to said they were heading to Brother Elder's house to help in his clean-up. I thought that he must have gotten hit pretty bad so I headed that way myself. Got over there and he had lost about the same amount of trees that I had. None hit the house. No one was injured. Half the congregation was there cleaning his yard. Funny, nobody called me to see if I needed any help. Oh, wait, I'm not an elder. I don't have any influence in congregational or judicial decisions.

Even the "charity" work amongst the brothers is conditional on position, influence and popularity.

25

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 8-17-03 WT Study

by blondie in

comments you will not hear at the 8-17-03 wt study

reviewer comments are in black and parentheses ().

wt quotes are in red and quotes ""

undercover

Even if I don't comment on each WT comment thread, I usually do read them. Thank you, Blondie.

I know that many of the rank and file would rather participate in genuine charitable works such as visiting and caring for the elderly than dragging themselves out in field service, but with the WTS' constant injunctions about doing more and equating other types of charity with wasting one's time, the average dub feels guilt-ridden about taking time away from the precious door-to-door work.

Something about that comment made me think of my parents. They have spent most of their adult lives trying to live up to the standards set out by the Society. Five meetings a week. Field service on weekends. Family studies. Preparing for meetings. In doing so, they have never given to charities or causes. They have never volunteered their time to good causes(outside of helping a few elderly in the congregation). Yet, they think that they are good, giving, charitable people. How? Because they spend time "preaching the good news of the Kingdom". They are good people, but charitable is the last thing they are. It's not their fault, I guess. They have been(how I hate to use this word) brainwashed.

Only in the last few years, has my family(wife and I) started giving to "worldly" charities. Even as I started doing this, I had tinges of guilt. Common sense prevailed though and now we give what we can to our favorite charities. It won't change the world, but every little bit helps.

26

How more vague can the society get at the assemblies?

by be wise in

jw
friends

his is a quote from the give god glory district convention showing how they avoid their own questions and provide the usual vague answers that no jw understands.

we don't want to be personally refuting these untruths unless jehovah's organisation assigned us to do that, publicly.

now, are we talking people in our ministry or elsewhere about points about what they have heard, read?

undercover

The DC talks are manuscript. I've seen the brother off to the side, with a copy of the talk, following word for word, what was being said. I've heard two reasons why: One, in case the brother croaks on stage, the guy keeping up can step over his body and take over and Two, in case the brother giving the talk decides to take matters into his own hands and changes the talk(protection against an apostate getting up there).

In the last few years, the only brothers I've seen not go by a manuscript are of the GB and even this was the closing talk on Sunday as they went on and on and on and....

The "Beware the Voice of Strangers" talk was probably one of the most paranoid talks that I have ever heard given at a DC. They are definately worried about how to control information among the rank and file. What was as troubling as the talk itself was the response by the R&F. Many praised the talk. Many swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Someone asked me what I thought of it and all I could say was, "You have to question the motive of any group or organization that seeks to control information about itself to it's members". They called me conspiratorial. Go figure.