Posts by undercover

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

undercover

you know what just hit me? we're debating the dialogue of a story that has been proven time and time again to be completely fictitious. next, why don't we debate what luke skywalker really meant in his first line from star wars.

You're absolutely right, Doog my man. I agree. It's a bedtime story.

It kills me that people think that it really happened and that they can tell so much from it. Read it without outside influence and the perceptions of the Christian's idea of how it happened shows up to be in error.

Satan is clearly the bad guy throughout the bible .

Well, yea if you read the bible as a novel. There's the good guy and the bad guy. God's the good guy, Satan's the bad guy. But going back to doogie's Star Wars example, Darth Vader was clearly the bad guy in the movie....but, he repesented the empire. Luke, Leia and Obiwan were rebels fighting to overthrow the empire. So who really was the bad guy? Rebels who fight to overthrow the existing government are usually not held in high esteem, but in the context of the movie, the rebels were good and the empire was bad. If you look at the Bible the same way you can make the same argument for or against both main characters.

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

undercover

They were deceived by him. Knowledge of good and evil , if evil meant death then it stands to reason that good meant life forever without death.

I qouted the Genesis acount to prove my point. Show me where the account indicates what you said.

God pronounced the earth and all that was on it at the time, good.

The serpent was on the earth. Was it also pronounced good?

1

Tiny Tim's daughter a JW.....

by Alana in

you know how when you look up something on the internet and it sparks your interest to look at something else, and then you click a link, etc.????

well, that happened to me and i ended up finding this information on a site regarding tiny tim and how his daughter didn't attend his funeral......(i don't even know what i originally looked up that lead me to this topic!!!

lol).....i asked miss sue about miss vicky and their daughter tulip.

undercover

Well, Tiny Tim was a nutcase so I guess it runs in the family.

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

undercover

If God is not there to "hold your hand" birth would be painful. Eve chose to not have God there with her.
If you move to a house with an over-grown garden that needs attention to be productive and beautiful again, it is hard work. But did the previous owner neglect it for years just to spite you?

First of all, you didn't answer the question. Show me where Satan lied or deceived. Second, well, I don't get your analogy at all.

they did die

Not then, not that day, not that week, not even soon. Read it again. God told them to not touch. To touch meant to die. The serpent said, nope, you touch you learn good from evil. Read God's punishment to them after they ate again. Never did he say the result of eating was death. He said they would toil TILL they died. That was their punishment. They did eventyally die, hundreds and hundreds of years later. But, nowhere did God promise them eternal life to begin with. In fact he ran em out before they ate of the tree of life guaranteeing them eternal life.

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

undercover

Satan brought God's wisdom into question. He personally misled the first couple, who were essentially children. They didn't even know the difference between good and evil.

Who lied to who here?

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

God said they would die. They didn't. The serpent said if they ate they would know good from evil. They did. It was confirmed by God himself. So who lied to who here?

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

undercover

God didn't punish A & E

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [3] named his wife Eve, [4] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

That's not punishment?

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

undercover

I've read the bible and I don't recall Satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however I read many accounts where God killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.

There was the time that Jesus cast out the demons from somebody and they entered the pigs and caused them to run off of a cliff.

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

undercover

Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Why? Because of Satan and Adam and Eve.
Perform to the gallery all you like but it still won't alter the fact that Jesus died for you.

First you have to prove if any or all of them ever existed. Then we can talk facts.

31

Pyramids vs the Flood

by ezekiel3 in

historians and scientists agree: the egyptian pyramids were built between 2500 - 2100 bc.

we even have some astronomical evendence that this is true: http://www.robertbauval.com/articles/gpdating.html.

jws teach that:the flood occured at 2370 bcestimates that the tower of babel was constructed around 2189 bcjoseph was sold into slavery 1750 bc (eventually to eygpt, already established as a world power).

undercover

I think a lot of JWs are vaguely aware of these problems but simply ignore the established chronology while muttering something about carbon-dating being inaccurate and "pagan" records being falsified.

So what do some of you think of carbon-dating. I spent some time trying to learn about it on-line the other day and actually came away a bit confused. The nay-sayers seemed to have some valid points as to why carbon-dating can't be trusted. But on the other hand, I got the impression that people who use carbon-dating, don't necessarily rely on just that to date things. They compare it to other factors and come up with a best guess scenerio, which seems reasonable to me.

22

why do animals die?

by doogie in

jw
friends

if man dies because of inherited sin (as pretty much all bible based religions believe), why do animals die?.

if sin is "falling short of god's will" and sin results in death, how have animals "fallen short" thus deserving death?

if there was a dog messiah, would animals be redeemed as well?

undercover

I was thinking about that just the other day. If God is perfect, then he can only create perfection. If he created perfect animals (and people) then they wouldn't grow old and weak and then die.

Someone might argue that God intentially created animals to die. Why? Why would a prefectionist create something to fail?

The WTS teaches that man was supposed to live forever but by sinning lost everlasting life. The Genesis account does not say anywhere that man was to live forever. In fact, God expelled man from the Garden before he could eat of the tree of everlasting life. Why would that tree be needed if man already was to live forever?

If God is perfect why did he invent evil? If God is perfect, then how did he create a creature that became Satan? God created Satan, therefore he created evil. People want to say that God gave his intelligent creatures free will. Fine. But if intelligent creatures were perfect, then they would always make perfect choices. If Eve was perfect, why was she so easlily deceived? A pefect person would not have been deceived.

If God is perfect, why would he allow evil to exist? He created Satan, Satan turns bad. Pefection 0, evil 1. The perfect God does not destroy this imperfection right away but allows it to continue. Perfection 0, evil 2. Evil then turns "perfect" man into "evil". Perfection 0, evil 3. "Perfect man grows old and dies". Perfection 0, evil 4. Mankind ruins the earth and wages war, killing millions. Perfection 0, evil 5. On and on it goes.

Who created implements of war? Evil or Perfection? Perfection. God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden and had the entrance guarded by angels and a flaming sword. Why a sword? Why was a war instrument needed to keep two naked people out of a garden?

Point is, the whole creation bit and Garden of Eden bit with snakes and deadly fruit is all fairy tales. JWs and many other fundamentalists buy into it.