undercover

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Posts by undercover

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  39

  Spinning the Noah Story WT Style

  by Farkel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away?

  note that jesus said nothing about noah doing any preaching or doing any warning to others about the coming flood.

  ?evidence?

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  undercover

  Was the ark made to accomodate people who would respond to Noah's message of doom? If hundreds or thousands of people had responded, would there have been enough room on the ark so that they could be saved?

  That's a great point!

  God tells Noah how big to make the ark and then (inserting WTS teaching) Noah preaches while at the same time builds the ark.

  If people had responded to his message, how would they have all fit on the ark? If God knew they wouldn't respond therefore telling Noah to build the ark just big enough for him, his family and the animals, then why bother to have Noah preach at all?

  Oh, WTS, what a tangled web you weave.
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  36

  JWs Shot in Parking Lot Shooting!

  by Voyager in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi everybody: http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  email articlelink to article print article.

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  undercover

  "Just because one guy had a gun doesn't make him worse than the other guy. If the other guy killed him with a pipe would that have been better somehow?"

  Bloody hell,is that the attitude in your Country?No wonder theres such a Gun problem there!So many Guns ,no wonder a bit of Road rage turns in to a Killing.Four shots fired?Seems to be above and beyond self defense.

  Funny how most here are taking the side of the Shooter.But i suppose the Man who died was only a Jw eh.So much hate.

  We have a thing here in the US called the Constitution. In this Constitution it gives the citizens the right to own and bear arms. Based on this right, my attitude of "Just because one guy had a gun doesn't make him worse than the other guy" is justified. Owning and possesing a gun does not make you a bad guy. Using a gun to defend yourself from attack also does not make you a bad guy.

  I've said more than once that I don't know what happened. I'm not taking any side. I don't care about their religious affliation. I can see either weapon wielding person as the attacker. All I'm saying is that it is possible that the gun-toting guy was defending himself against a guy who came at him with a pipe.

  Funny how so many instantly assume that the guy with the gun had to be the bad guy, just because he had a gun.
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  36

  JWs Shot in Parking Lot Shooting!

  by Voyager in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi everybody: http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  email articlelink to article print article.

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  undercover

  I just have a hard time picturing this guy attacking another man with a pipe, then picturing his wife continuing the attack through a hail of bullets. It just doesn't make sense.

  I agree, it doesn't make sense the way it is being reported right now. My theory was just to show that it could happen in a way where the gun carrier was justified. Someone could make a theory as plausible as mine showing the gun carrier the attacker and the pipe wielder defending himself. The guy who lived is telling his side. We'll never know the other guy's side.

  I never pictured the wife continuing the attacks. In my theory, she just was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  However, back to reality, the man with the gun shot another man and his wife four times in total. It looks more like an argument escalated, and the guy with the gun did some killin.

  We don't know the reality yet. We might not ever know. Just because one guy had a gun doesn't make him worse than the other guy. If the other guy killed him with a pipe would that have been better somehow?
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  36

  JWs Shot in Parking Lot Shooting!

  by Voyager in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi everybody: http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  email articlelink to article print article.

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  undercover

  It's just comforting to know that no one can take away your right to carry a concealed weapon. You know, just in case the redcoats attack, or something.

  Sarcasm duly noted...

  But for argument's sake, let's say the guy with the gun was attacked by the pipe wielding guy. The pipe guy didn't know the other guy had a gun, it was concealed. Once attacked, concealed weapon guy is able to fend off pipe wielding guy by shooting him. If he had not been armed, it might have been un-armed man that would be buried not pipe wielding guy. So in this case it was comforting to know that we have the right to carry a concealed weapon. You know, just in case a pipe wielding citizen attacks, or something.
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  36

  JWs Shot in Parking Lot Shooting!

  by Voyager in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi everybody: http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  http://www.denverpost.com/stories/0,1413,36~53~2539671,00.html.

  email articlelink to article print article.

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  undercover

  This story doesn't smell right to me. It seems odd that a person would have to shoot a man and his wife in self defense.

  It's too early to really tell what happened. It'll take a few days for the actual facts to make it to the papers.

  I can envision one scenerio that would be plausible...No matter who dinged who's car door...No matter who started the argument...If the one guy with his wife grabs a metal pipe and starts beating the other guy over the head. The assualted guy goes down and knows he's being beaten, grabs his concealed weapon and without proper aiming just starts shooting in the direction of the attacker. With self preservation in mind he fires several times. The pipe wielder goes down and the woman takes a couple of slugs by just being there. That is self-defense.

  But we don't know if it happened that way or not.
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  61

  My Brother Can't Even Do Microphone Duty Because He Went To My Kid's Weddin

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my mother just told me that my brother was told by his elders that because he attended my daughter's wedding, he was not going to be allowed any privileges, including "handling the microphones".

  my elder friend that also went to the wedding told me he was being deleted too.

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  undercover

  Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

  Yep, gotta agree with that... However...

  It was teejay's attitude in a couple of posts that got some people kind of upset with him. In fact the advice of not judging someone until you've walked in their shoes could apply to teejay as well as the rest of us.

  I think teejay made some valid points otherwise, unfortunate that those points were lost by everyone jumping on what was perceived as an attack. Either way I'd hate to see this thread disintegrate into name calling or side taking over this when minimus seems genuinely upset over what has transpired over the last few weeks.
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  61

  My Brother Can't Even Do Microphone Duty Because He Went To My Kid's Weddin

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my mother just told me that my brother was told by his elders that because he attended my daughter's wedding, he was not going to be allowed any privileges, including "handling the microphones".

  my elder friend that also went to the wedding told me he was being deleted too.

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  undercover

  Sounds like a vendetta to me. To delete elders, take "responsibilities" away, remove pioneers, all because they attended a wedding of an "in-active" JW to a "worldly" person.

  Most JWs have non-JW family that marry, etc. Do they get sanctioned for attending those weddings? Not usually.

  Since your situation involves you, an elder, fading away, your family fading away, and then some of the "friends" sharing in a joyful period of celebrating a marriage of non-JW to inactive JW, it was too much for one or more of the elders in you old hall. They can't get you for apostasy(yet) so they are going after everyone and everything they can to make life hell for anyone who has anything to do with you.

  Now that's a Christian religion for ya.
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  26

  Fading, but I dont think I can do it

  by vitty in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ive been fading for about 7 months now, but i dont know if i can carry it off.. i was really upset by a family member, had a couple of drinks then phoned my sister, whoes not a jw, ( for a bit of sympathy) but then i revealed too much information about my fading.

  the thing is shes going on holiday with my other sister who is a jw, now im scared she might tell her.

  she wouldnt do it on pupose.. i feel im in quick sand, drowning, i would love to tell the way i really feel, but cant take the shunning.will this ever end?

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  undercover

  I don't advocate lying to family members, but that doesn't mean you have to be completely truthful either. Just don't tell them certain things. I also have no qualms about lying to an organization that lies itself. Theocratic strategy and warfare, remember? They called it war, not me. Sometimes war consists of out in the open battles, sometimes it's a covert operation with spies. Those that DA or allow themselves to be DFd are in the battle troops, those that fade are in a covert operation.

  undercover of the covert operation class
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  26

  Fading, but I dont think I can do it

  by vitty in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ive been fading for about 7 months now, but i dont know if i can carry it off.. i was really upset by a family member, had a couple of drinks then phoned my sister, whoes not a jw, ( for a bit of sympathy) but then i revealed too much information about my fading.

  the thing is shes going on holiday with my other sister who is a jw, now im scared she might tell her.

  she wouldnt do it on pupose.. i feel im in quick sand, drowning, i would love to tell the way i really feel, but cant take the shunning.will this ever end?

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  undercover

  It takes time to fade...some take years and never really make a clean getaway. It does get easier with time. The paranoia decreases. The fear of elders knocking on the door or calling lessens. Not to say that they won't come calling, but over time you care less and less till eventually you don't care what they do or say. You don't worry about running into JWs when out and about. I run into some old JW "friends" occasionally. I speak and chat with them. Some are seem really glad to see me and we have a good chat, others avoid me and whisper about me when I'm out of earshot. Whatever. Their loss. I fear none of them anymore and I don't care what they say about me. As time goes by, I see why some opt for the straight out strategy of DAing. It does give you a sense of closure that fading will not give you. But if you have family still in or if you just refuse to play by the WTS rules fading is an art form all it's own.

  Having family still in the "truth" is the toughest part. They're usually the reason many of us fade so that we can keep those family relations intact but at the same time a lot of these same people, who we go through the pain of fading for, will look down on us as "weak" or "unspiritual". They will pressure us to return and outright condemn us for "leaving Jehovah". Sometimes you have to keep your cool, remain calm and look at the big picture...keeping family intact. It may mean some confrontations from time to time, but what family doesn't have them anyway?

  Good luck
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  33

  Were You Afraid Of The Elders?.Did Ya Love Em?...What Was Your View of Them

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've heard of brothers and sisters saying that they have "prayed for the elders because they love them for their hard work and sacrifice".

  i've also heard of how some in the congregation were petrified of the elders and of course, there were those that said they were either only men or that they were direct representatives of jehovah god himself.

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  undercover

  Interesting question...one that should evoke all kinds of responses....

  Myself....as a child during the early-mid 60s, I feared the elders. Elders were not so much shepards as they were Gestapo agents. They were there to make sure rules were obeyed. They were there to "take care of" disobedient ones, rebels and dissenters. Sometime in the mid to late 70s, there seemed to be a shift from the elders being disclipinarians to being more shepard like. They were to lead by example and in teaching but were firm when necessary. They seemed to become more affable and likeable.

  Was this because I was growing up and seeing them in a different light or because the patterns changed? Looking back at the publications from the 50s and 60s compared to the mid 70s to the early 80s, I think the WTS started to encourage elders to be approachable and easy to deal with. Rigidness & hardheadedness - out, merciful & caring - in.

  Comparing elders from my age group today to some of the old school still left around, I can see a definite change in style and personalities. Old school guys are still somewhat strict and rigid, not willing to compromise a position or be reasoned with. The young guns tend to be looser, easy going, not sweating the details or the little things. Of course these are generalities...I have seen examples of both types in both age groups. The young ones who are strict and rigid are usually worse than the old school guys. It's like they have to prove something or make up for something lacking in their life elsewhere.