Vienna

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Posts by Vienna

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  51

  WATCHING THE WORLD GO DOWN

  by You Know in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "all things are continuing exactly the same as from creation's beginning" is the thinking attributed to those ridiculers of christ's presence.

  because the sign of christ's invisible presence must be accepted on faith and faith is not a possession of all people, faithless ones are willfully blinded to the evidence that the system is nearing its hour of judgment.

  in this the 2nd week of august 2001, the evidence steadily mounts that apostate ridiculers of jehovah's word are very badly mistaken and about to be spanked with a very large paddle.

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  Vienna

  Quote from You Know:
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  Just because the Watchtower hasn't told you who the king of the north is doesn't mean he is not now identifiable by those with insight into these things. But, since the Watchtower hasn't seen fit to tell you, and since Jehovah obviosuly hasn't revealed his secret to you, neither am I going to explain to you the enigma of the king of the north. But when the time comes we'll let you know. LOL / You Know
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  This is on record as one of the wackiest things I've ever read--including that loopy laughter typed in at the end. It's coming from someone who has no clue what they are talking about, but they are trying to make a point. My step-mother suffered from various problems and would talk like this--like riddles that only she would get. We all would just nod and smile.
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  107

  FATAL ASSUMPTIONS

  by You Know in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  jesus further related in the 15th chapter of john: "nevertheless, i have spoken these things to you that, when the hour for them arrives, you may remember i told them to you.

  these things, however, i did not tell you at first, because i was with you.

  so, the point is that jesus has not told his anointed ones certain things yet because the hour for them has not arrived.

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  Vienna

  You Know:

  Do you realize how arrogant, condecending and uncaring your posts are, and in no way reflect well for the WT Society? I thought your goal was to win people to the organization? Do you talk to people in field service so cold and unhuman? I'm sure you tolerate them if they are interested, then turn cold as ice when they choose not to have a return visit. I was never like that as a witness. Even if people were wrong, I would always try to win them with love and still be kind. I would think, how else would I let them know I had the truth?

  If I were on this board seeking to know more about JWs, I would not want to join an organization where people acted like you. I'm not being mean or trying to be funny, but honestly your posts scare me in your lack of caring about people and just being human. Wow.
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  9

  "Please, Is there really truth anywhere of...

  by Shane in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i want to know what truth" is if its out there some where surely god will guide me to find it, i don't want to die without honestly knowing for sure knowing i have found the so called "truth.

  i have been stumbled by others and by my selfish ways.

  in the words of the song "send me an angel," cause i sure need one.. maybe i am not of their sort as the bible says and as elders have labeled me, but i do want to live and exist somewhere, and see the light what ever and where ever it is.

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  Vienna

  Hi Shane. I understand your frustration--we all have been there! What Rex said is on the right track, and for me, it took completely throwing away everything I knew about God and the Bible and starting over fresh--just me, the Bible and prayer. There is truth out there because Jesus died and He now lives again--there's too much historical and other facts to prove otherwise, so start with just that basis if you want. It's hard finding anything after the hurt from the WT, but don't give up. Even though it might be hard to pray right now (I went through that too), keep praying.
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  18

  JW question

  by Vienna in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  quick question i haven't been able to get an answer:.

  we all are human.

  we all have the same makeup.

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  Vienna

  You Know:

  Thanks for your response, but I beg to differ on your point. The WT doesn't have books in bookstores because it would take money out of their pocket. Come on, what greater "witness" would their be than to get more and more converts to their organization? Putting publications in a bookstore would surely do the trick! Currently they don't have to pay for publishers, rights, vendors, etc. because they get free marketers to not only take the books to people, but to get the books made. Bethel workers are slave labor. They get a small monthly allowance, but come on, for the full-time work they do for long hours a day and week don't even measure up. The Society has free labor. They only pay the very small cost for paper. So, for a bible that would cost $20 in a bookstore, they can get a similar amount "donated" and have all of the profit put in their pocket. Also, don't forget that bookstores and publishers dictate the costs of books. There is a reason you are paying $20 for that bible--they take into consideration production costs, etc., etc. People take the publications to the door for free. Profit, profit, profit.

  Now, another more solid reason WT publications aren't sold in bookstores has to do with the WT's doctrine and failure to have having a good translation. Why is that an issue? If you put a work of theology out for the public, there are thousands of critics ready to pick apart any discrepancies, flaws, errors that aren't right. Sadly, due to the WT's unsound doctrine, they can not stand up to the such an open spotlight that would show their work as being the false religion that it is. One small case example of caving was during a court trial held in Scotland in 1954 (during the same period that the New World Translation was being made) Franz was asked if he had made himself familiar with Hebrew. His reply was "Yes." He also acknowledged under oath that he could read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German and French. The following day, during the same court trial, his linguistic abilities were put to the test. He was asked to translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew. He failed the test as he was unable to do so. In fact he did not even try, but rather stated "No, I wouldn't attempt to do that."(See, Court of Session, Scotland - Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham Clyde -November 1954.)

  Numerous scholars with true credentials in the Biblical languages have condemned the Watchtower's New World Translation as a fatal distortion of God's written Word. For example, see The Bible Collector (July-December, 1971) issue which devotes three articles evaluating the Watchtower scripture.
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  18

  JW question

  by Vienna in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  quick question i haven't been able to get an answer:.

  we all are human.

  we all have the same makeup.

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  Vienna

  My point EXACTLY, SixOfNine. Not being funny, but that very thing bothered me when I was a witness. I knew something was differant about WT bibles/publications in order for them not to be sold in bookstores and not taken seriously as valid theology. It was was of the things that caused me to research, and that research lead me to real truth!
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  18

  JW question

  by Vienna in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  quick question i haven't been able to get an answer:.

  we all are human.

  we all have the same makeup.

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  Vienna

  Thanks for your post You Know (ignore my post to MA). I'm normally not nasty, but he annoyed me.

  Where is the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:15? One of the core doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses is that the group depicted in this verse resides on the earth. Witnesses believe that the vast majority of redeemed mankind will be blessed with everlasting human life on earth, while only a "little flock" of 144,000 will go to heaven to serve with Christ. Is this true?? One of the Watchtower Society's main doctrines is that there are actually two classes of Christians--the earthly class, and the heavenly class. Those of the earthly class, therefore, are not in the new covenant mediated by Christ and enjoy a relationship with God only by virtue of their association with those who profess to be the last remaining members of the 144,000 still on earth. To understand the scope of this controversy and its implications, it is essential to know the meanings of two Greek words--naos and hieron--as they relate to God's temple in the Bible.

  Hieron is the Greek word for the entire temple complex with all its sub-structures and courts. Naos refers to the inner sanctuary of the temple complex which included the Holy and Holy of Holies (or Most Holy).

  Now, it was from the court of the outer temple (hieron--not naos) that Jesus drove the money changers. (See Matt. 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45 and John 2:14,15 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.)
  It was the entire temple (hieron--not naos) that was destroyed as a judgment from God. (See Matt. 24:1,2, Mark 13:1-3 and Luke 21:5,6 in the Kingdom Interlinear.)

  The further you study, the more apparent it became that the apostle John's use of the word naos in the pertinent texts in Revelation referred to the inner sanctuary representing heaven. Once again, it represents HEAVEN. (See for example Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1, 11:19, 14:15, 15:5, 16:1,17)

  It is commonly recognized by Bible scholars that the "courtyard that is outside" the naos referred to in this verse alludes to the courtyard of the gentiles in the temple rebuilt by Herod.

  Clearly, this outermost court is in no way the naos (inner sanctuary or "divine habitation") where the "great crowd" is depicted as serving God in Revelation 7:15. It is said to be "outside" the naos and those occupying this courtyard are portrayed as opposers, not supporters of true worship.

  IF YOU DON'T READ ANYTHING ELSE::::
  A very important fact is that at Revelation 7:9, 15, the "great crowd" is said to be "before the throne" of God. As the Society's publications have pointed out, the Greek word translated "before" in this text is "enopion" and it LITERALLY means "in [the] sight [of]." (See for example page 123 of the book, Revelation--Its Grand Climax at Hand [1988].) This Greek word is used repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation to locate objects and persons "before" or "in the sight of" God in heaven. Where are they????? In heaven. Looking up the following verses in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures makes this clear:

  Revelation 1:4 - "seven spirits that are before (enopion) his [God's] throne, ...."
  Revelation 4:5 - "seven lamps of fire burning before (enopion) the throne [of God], ...."
  Revelation 4:6 - "And before (enopion) the throne [of God] there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal."
  Revelation 4:10 - "the twenty-four elders fall down before (enopion) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before (enopion) the throne, ...."
  Revelation 7:9 - "a great crowd, ... standing before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion) the Lamb ...."
  Revelation 7:11 - "And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before (enopion) the throne and worshiped God, ...."
  Revelation 7:15 - "That is why they [the great crowd] are before (enopion) the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service ...."
  Revelation 8:3 - "And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before (enopion) the throne."
  Revelation 9:13 - "And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before (enopion) God."
  Revelation 11:16 - "And the twenty-four elders who were seated before (enopion) God ...."
  Revelation 14:3 - "And they [the 144,000] are singing as if a new song before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion) the four living creatures and the elders; ...."

  My personal favorite is Rel. 19:1. Can't get any clearer than that. What does all of this mean??? Clearly, when considered in context, there is little reason to doubt that the "great crowd" is "before the throne" in heaven in the same manner as the seven lamps of fire, the glassy sea like crystal, the crowns of the 24 elders, the angels, the elders themselves, the four living creatures, the golden altar, and the 144,000.

  Again it is a case of the Society reasoning from traditional beliefs and interpretations and endeavoring to make the Bible align with these, instead of starting with the Scriptures and then changing its teachings to conform to God's Word. (Compare Matthew 15:1-9 and Mark 7:6-9 where Jesus condemned the scribes and Pharisees for allowing tradition to take precedence over God's Word.) So it still remains to be seen if the Society will one day return to its pre-1935 position of accepting the Bible's plain teaching that the great crowd is located "before the throne" in God's heavenly sanctuary (naos) or if instead they will just continue to obscure matters by trying to force the Bible to agree with the present teachings of the organization.
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  18

  JW question

  by Vienna in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  quick question i haven't been able to get an answer:.

  we all are human.

  we all have the same makeup.

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  Vienna

  I agree Francoise. MadApostate also needs a cup of coffee after that nap....takes the edge off! ;)

  As regards to WT teaching that 144,000 are "changed" to "spirit creatures", do your bible reading of Revelation (and cross reference) because you'll find out who actually go to heaven, actually READ the bible and not what your mommy (WTS) tells you is happening. Of course, that would require reasoning skills I'm not sure I should be asking from you. Sorry.

  As regards your statement that the NWT is not an "approved" translation, tell me why only JWs push it, why no bookstores carry it (because it's a joke), and why the translators of it have no degrees in Greek? Oh, there so much to that story, but I'm not to doing the homework for you--though I know you're used to others doing the homework for you, aka WTBTS.

  But forgot I said anything. It's Saturday!!! Life is routine for you. How was field service? Don't you have a WT you need to be color coding for tomorrow?
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  21

  Witnesses admit to counting time on-line ...

  by dedalus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i wonder how much of a trend this is, and what it means for the watchtower publishing empire.

  hours up, placements down .... http://www.greatcrowd.com/159ubb/forum1/html/000234.html.

  dedalus

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  Vienna

  Well, I'm glad they are encouraging on-line witnesses. Perhaps more witnesses will do a search and come to sites like this and get reading about the reality of the WT society. Could it be???
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  18

  JW question

  by Vienna in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  quick question i haven't been able to get an answer:.

  we all are human.

  we all have the same makeup.

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  Vienna

  Well, that's my point terraly. I want JWs to think about deeper questions like that and realize that the WT doesn't answer them. It comes from getting a real bible (the NWT is not an approved translations so that doesn't count) and have a real study of it that is not tainted with WT spin.

  Of course, while being a JW, I never thought about deep things--or, when I did I was programmed to think "The Society doesn't approve of that train of thought." The depth of God and the Bible is so deep, but you don't get to explore it as a JW. I would have a thought like that for awhile, but of course as SixofNine says I would go out in FS, go to the meetings and study my WT and stuff for the Tuesday night meetings, try to get to work and have a family life then wouldn't have time to research that thought provoking question I used to have. I would forget it after time and get stuck back in the routine of WT slavery. So sad. WTBTS really needs to market these brainwashing techniques. You must admit they are pretty good.
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  11

  Guy to cut off feet on the net!

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well why not!?

  they're his feet and all........ >> http://www.cutoffmyfeet.com/.

  isp

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  Vienna

  I heard that guy who is cutting off his feet on Howard Stern. I hope he gets enough money to get the operation done.