Posts by voltaire

31

What things are pagan in origin?

by roybatty in

jw
friends

i read someone's commment about the pagan origins of pretzels, which i didn't know.

i'd like to share with my kids other items or customs that are also pagan in origin, like wedding rings and the wedding cake.

i want them to see that christmas isn't the only tradition with roots in pagan religion that have changed meaning over the years.. any others out there?

voltaire

The awake had an article about pants being invented by the Celtics. On the count of three, everybody drop'em. One..., two...

12

The 1914 generation is back for 2002

by Skimmer in

jw
friends

the 1914 generation is back for 2002.. that's right.

some people who were alive in 1914 will still be around to see the big a according to the 2002 theocratic ministry school outline.

i downloaded the 4.8 mbyte zip file the other day and was looking for references to 1914.. from section number four of the june 17, 2002 entry (page 112):.

The Govering Body....victims?

by Preston in

jw
friends

the governing body... victims of the misinformation that has gone back many, many years?

they might not be as entirely evil as many of you have pointed out.

even hitler believed the misinformation that he so strongly promoted, an anti-semitism that stretched back centuries.

I agree to a considerable extent with your premise. These are clearly men who have invested their entire lives in something akin to a hoax. How difficult it would be to let go of that. It was incredibly difficult for me after only about 10 years of involvement. I agree with the comments that point out that this doesn't relieve them of their responsibility. After all, a deluded madman is still a danger to society and needs to be restrained for the safety of society. In the case of a religion, we have the complication of a situation where people want to be misled. The victims are as desperate for the GB's message to be true as are the members of the GB. I continue to hope that exposing the truth of the WT's past will help those who want to get out to have the information they need to make their stand. As for those who are happy in the WT, that's their right, I'm not sure what else we can do.

23

What do you think the Dateline show will do?

by Mulan in

jw
friends

i am curious.

does anyone really believe the dateline show will make very many current dubs "wake up" and leave?

do you think it will bring the organization down?

voltaire

Gopher said that the program will only affect those with an open mind. I agree, but I think that is the only realistic goal anyway. Let's make the info available. The rest is up to them.

4

JW Chosen To Exemplify New Religious Tolerance

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

anyone know this jw yahoo, tommy fasano?

is he "special"?

opinions: .

voltaire

Typical "doublespeak, and probably "doublethink". I assume that the JW in the article really believes what he said. The comments that follow by the researcher are a totally inaccurate reflection of JW belief, but he probably doesn't realize it.

14

Begining of the end

by voltaire in

jw
friends

i don't post often and many of you seem to be relatively new to the board, so you may not know me or my situation.

i've been struggling with some the usual issues that are commented on here on a regular basis.

last sunday the elders finally asked me why i haven't been in service for the last two months.

voltaire

A few comments in reply:

Erik,

You asked how I feel about Christmas. I don't really feel there is a "Truth". After investigating the origins of the org., I see it as just another religion. I must admit that I do feel a bit strange about it all. But in the end, the celebrations just seem like customs that people engage in when they want to be with their friends and loved ones. The JWs have their own superstitions and rituals that they've created in order to set themselves apart. (This looks like a tactic buy Rutherford to cut ties with Russell and consolidate his own power) I'll just remind myself that Russell celebrated Christmas, too.

Most of you prefer the slow fade. I feel like I'm in a bit of the slow fade process already and I don't like it very much. About a year ago I took a job working evenings, which got me off the hook for 2 out of 3 meetings. At the time I was just begining to realize that I couldn't give another ministry school talk. I started only doing street work. No trying to convince anyone of anything, just hand out a few mags. (BTW, I think a lot of brothers go this far and stop. They're in denial. They can't admit to themselves that something is wrong. But on an instictive level, they feel compelled to limit their association. What is taken for "discouragement" is probably more often as not an inner, unspoken realization that it's not really the truth) This in-between feeling of being able to associate with brothers, but knowing that they wouldn't want to be with you if you actually said what was on your mind is really odd, and in someways stressful. Brothers invite us over occasionally and I love them dearly. We had a great time recently. My wife and I went with another couple to a restaurant where a sister sings. The food was great (Latin, Mexican) But the following day I was a bit depressed. It took me a while to realize why. It reminds me of the U2(?) song,"I can't live with or without you". Staying or leaving is painful. Leaving is starting to look more attractive for several reasons. (1) I can be open and honest, albeit respectful, about my differences. I think I'll feel good about that.(2) If they disfellowship or even mark me, I'll be free to associate with my friends. I feel that I'll have the moral highground. I certainly won't want to go to meetings, so I'll do things with people who accept me for who I am. I've already accepted that my wife may or may not stay, and I'm OK with that. Again, I feel confident that I'm in the right. I'll simply be following my conscience and doing what I think is right. If she can't allow me that, so be it. Thanks again for the chance to talk and your helpful comments.

14

Begining of the end

by voltaire in

jw
friends

i don't post often and many of you seem to be relatively new to the board, so you may not know me or my situation.

i've been struggling with some the usual issues that are commented on here on a regular basis.

last sunday the elders finally asked me why i haven't been in service for the last two months.

voltaire

Thanks for the comments and support. It really does mean a lot me. My wife is a witness. If it weren't for her, I'd simply move away and not leave the secretary any forwading address. I've thought about trying the avoidance thing. I assume the elders will keep inviting me out in service and trying to talk to me. The truth is, I feel at this point that I prefer to be honest. I don't plan to tell anyone off. But I just want the elders to know that I don't agree with the society on some points.I plan to be respectful and I'm not going to argue because I know they're not open to reasoning. (Though I won't tell them that) They can believe what they want, but I must believe what makes most sense to me. I would call myself agnostic. At this point in my life I simply want to go my own way. I don't want to have to hide the fact that I go to a Christmas party from my wife or that I bought someone a Christmas gift. I have found that being in the spot I'm in is terribly uncomfortable. I don't want to participate in the meetings or go in service. But I do want to go with my wife on Sundays for the support that gives her. ( She's pretty distraught over it all) It's very taxing to feel like you can't say what's on your mind. Does anyone relate? Has anyone felt that it would be a relief to say what you think in a respectful way? If so, how did it go?

14

Begining of the end

by voltaire in

jw
friends

i don't post often and many of you seem to be relatively new to the board, so you may not know me or my situation.

i've been struggling with some the usual issues that are commented on here on a regular basis.

last sunday the elders finally asked me why i haven't been in service for the last two months.

voltaire

I don't post often and many of you seem to be relatively new to the board, so you may not know me or my situation. I've been struggling with some the usual issues that are commented on here on a regular basis. Last Sunday the elders finally asked me why I haven't been in service for the last two months. (actually it's four, but I made up time for two months because I wasn't ready to deal with it all before) Sometime this week I'll talk to one of them. I'll basically have to tell him that I don't think it's the truth and that I can't conscientiously teach anyone to believe something I don't believe to be true. I'm sure we'll go in circles for a good long while. He may ask me if I've read "apostate" material. I'm planning on being truthful. I don't feel I have anything to be ashamed of. They, on the other hand, should be very ashamed for trying to control what others see and hear. I've been thinking and planning for more than a year, so I'm well prepared emotionally. (Well, sort of. It's still going to be tough) I've made some great friends. This week I'll be celebrating Christmas with two groups. No Christmas for years and now twice in one season! I'm writing this because I really don't have anyone who understands the witness thing. My new friends think it's absolutely nuts! They're sympathetic, of course, but can't really relate.
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. I'll let you know what hapens. Merry Christmas! ( That felt good)

19

Evolution Tree has no Trunk

by Escargot in

jw
friends

simon: last post on this topic for the week!

hope all have enjoyed this information!.

"""""missing trunk .

voltaire

I've read a couple of books lately about the ancestors of pre-cambrian life forms. I think one was by Gould. The other was by Fortey. It's titled something like "A History of Life". Go to the library or a local Borders bookstore. Scientists are learning more all the time about the precursors of the pre-cambrian. It's tough work since the scientists are dealing with life forms that didn't have hard body parts that fossilize easily. Of course, most of your quotes are quite dated and reflect questions that were legitimate at the time.

I am curious about one thing, though. Evolution provides the perfect framework for explaining why there were more phyla in the past than in the present. Many forms evolved but not all were equally fit and therefore failed to survive. Assuming special creation is true, why would God create body plans that would eventually become extinct. Were they poor designs that seemed like a good idea at the time? ( Hey, I can relate!) Maybe he wanted to make lots of creatures and see who would win. ( I used to do the same thing with crawdads when I was little)

24

Will Watchtower Fold Like The Taliban?

by metatron in

jw
friends

one day, you have a religious movement calling for.

total sacrifice, that every man should fight to the.

death in god's service.. a few days later, the leadership is negotiating a. surrender in disgrace.. could this portend the future of the watchtower?.

voltaire

Nytelecom1,

Those who predict the downfall of the WT don't claim to have authority from God.Therefore, they are not false prophets. BTW I doubt the WT society will fold or even shrink. In fact, if there is a significant loss of membership due to current controversies, it could signal a brief decline followed by an even more spectacular increase. On Randy's site there's a great article about what happens to groups after their prophecies are disconfirmed. The results are quite often the opposite of what one would expect. Those who remain despite the evidence that their leadership's predictions failed are the most committed. Recruiting new members is a way of proving that they were right after all, since the new members wouldn't be joining if there were a problem(I know, it's dubious reasoning) At any rate, people are free to belong to the WT if they wish to. I'm glad that now there's information available so that people can make an informed choice.