as i was musing in my shop yesterday gluing poly pipe together, (hmm wonder if the fumes got to me) i was thinking of those that still hold to a) the literalness of the biblical creation story and b) thinking that this obviates the theory of evolution.
it crossed my mind that the human inmune system, by its very existence forces one to reconsider one or both positions.
any thoughts?
hey sweetpea,
actually, I think your musings are from the fumes. they'll make you a brain cell (or million) less if you keep it up. I have an x-husband a million or so short from methel ethel ketone.....loved the stuff.....amongst other stuff too.
but it's good to see you no matter how many brain cells it takes.
waiting
i just got this email this evening from the cto of my hosting provider: i am writing you in regards to your site www.dirtclod.com.
we have been forwarded a copy of a complaint that was sent to our upstream provider regarding your site and the content which is posted on your site.
it would seem that you are posting copyrighted sections and images which are legal property of watchtower bible and tract society of new york inc. please remove these offending letters and images which are being claimed are used without permission, or provide us a statement which allows you to publish/reproduce this content on your website.
Shaun's forum has scanned images of WT letters - many sites do.
Sometimes they block out a part of the letter (personal mailing addresses, etc.)
Perhaps that's the key? Block out the logo & personal info on letter. Perhaps even blocking out non-essential sentences.
At the beginning of your site, you could state why you had to do this. Can you put up the notification from your ISP to show it's legit.....as they would be the ones naming the WTBTS.
Don't know how this would do?
waiting
http://www.kxly.com/common/getstory.asp?id=30410
the smoking gun?
local survivors of catholic priest sexual abuse say its the smoking gun: a 40 page document, uncovered by news4 lays out in great detail exactly how the vatican instructed all of his diocese world wide to silence all claims of sexual abuse by priests.
Hello Hamas,
This same issue hit the Canadian Angelican Church a couple years ago. What made that unique was that the Anglelican Church was sanctioned by the Canadian Government to run gov' schools for Canadian Indians. The priests (primarily) physically, emotionally, and sexually abused many Indian kids for decades. I'm working from memory here, so all my facts might not be 100% - but the gist is.
The Canadian government and the Angelican Church had to pay heavily (last I heard anyway) after several lawsuits brought this to public attention.
The Angelican Church in one province (area of Canada?) said it was going to be forced into bankruptcy and wouldn't be able to pay. It was later reported that what the Angelican Church actually did was move their assets to another province. Ain't that just like a religion.
Thanks, Nathan!
I've read this twice now......and look forward to coming back to it - but my statements are just sitting there on my desk.....waiting.
the san jose post-record, is a legal newspaper published in san jose, california that carries articles of interest to members of city government, law enforcement, the legal profession and general public.
on wednesday, 7-30-2003, page 3 has an extensive article of alleged "cover up" by guess who?
here is the link to the pdf scan of this article:scanned article (pdf)publication contact page (html).
Derrick,
It's too early on Saturday morning for that kind of talk. I haven't had enough coffee to even try to comprehend.
Look forward to your next post.
waiting
.
what do you recommend?
what did you like most about the book?
Thanks Ginny,
People do not knowingly join "cults" that will ultimately destroy and kill them. People join self-help groups, churches, political movements, college campus dinner socials, and the like, in an effort to be part of something larger than themselves. It is mostly the innocent and naive who find themselves entrapped. In their openhearted endeavor to find meaning in their lives, they walk blindly into the promise of ultimate answers and a higher purpose. It is usually only gradually that a group turns into or reveals itself as a cult, becomes malignant, but by then it is often too late.
I think this is one of the primary reasons that people (not young children) come into a group. "self-help groups, churches, political movements, college campus dinner socials.
College Campus dinner dinner socials is the primary contact for Church of Christ Cult - according to some x's.
When family and friends are used as a weapon in order to force us to stay in an organization, something has gone terribly wrong.
If I, as a young woman, had had someone explain to me what cults are and how indoctrination works, my story might not have been the same.
This would be the primary reason for these types of books, these forums, the news reports, etc. Perhaps someone will read BEFORE they join......not after they give up so much to escape.
Hope all's going well for you & your family? Good - I knew it would.
waiting
a few weeks back i helped my brother move out of a shared apartment to a rented room in a rooming house.
there's no question that the years of having been a jw took their emotional, physical and mental toll on him and now as a former witness, life is not easy for him.. he understood when i refused to help him move the boxes and boxes of wt literature, the "apostate" cassettes/vhs tapes and other literature.
i asked him why he had to keep these things that had hurt him so much and he replied that "it was for the lawsuits".. i wondered in the back of my mind how many others obsessed over suing the wt society.
I think it's part of the recovery path, Path.
Of course, some people can get stalled and never get past the steps of anger, wanting to get even, satisfaction.....etc. Like going through a divorce, a death, dying. Recognized steps. If someone gets stalled, sometimes professional help can help.
If he's like most people, the boxes will go a little further inside the closet until he needs more room one day. Then he'll toss them as he doesn't need them anymore. Glad to see y'all being brothers again.
Perhaps wanting to sue the WTBTS is akin to wanting to kill your ex. Many an ex has planned many a way to do that.............but few do it. Most get over it (or learn to cope a little easier) and only think about it occasionally.
I used to tell every sleazy person I met that if they told me a day before my x husband died accidently, I'd split the insurance money with them. That fool is still alive......now I think about his death only when I pay his insurance.
As for the legal technicalities? Agree with what's been posted.
Live & Let Live (except my x)
waiting
is it just my imagination, or are a disproportionate of jws ex-catholic?.
were you a catholic before a jw?.
why did you feel that the jw religion was "better" than the "catholic" one?.
Well my two cents would be, if you look back say 25-30 years ago, the cahtolic religion and the jw's resembled each other quite a bit. If you were catholic you were excommunicated for just about the same thing as jw's besides the blood issue. You were kicked out if you, got divorced, got pregnant before you were married. The two religions resemble each other so the draw was there at the time. But now I couldn't teel ya.My two cents. - obiwan
Not so in Indiana. There were at least a dozen girls in our class (we were rebellious, btw) who got pregnant. Nothing happens to them - from the church view. Society in general stigmatized them. Go to confession, do your rosaries, you're forgiven. Simplistic & easy on the mental state of person. Divorce? Not excommunicated.........just not allowed to receive sacraments ---and no one would ever know that except yourself. In all my years being - or being around - Catholics, I've never even heard of someone being excommunicated.
Because most Catholics are ignorant of what the bible says. -lv4fer
Little Witch - ya gotta be more careful about that reading comprehension! YES - the vast majority of Catholics are ignorant of what the Bible teaches. Until 1959, no Catholic was even allowed a Bible in their home - less they misinterpret it. Only a priest could interpret the Bible. Sound familiar? My sister went to a bible class once while studying with the jw's (me). She asked about the realism of the Flood - and the priest (who I knew from hs) said "OMG - they don't have you believing in the Flood, do they?" She was so humiliated that she continued her study with the jw's. We were so nice. Bible salesmen were elated when the US Catholics could buy bibles. We had one of those Big Red Bibles on our coffee table with all the pretty pictures. But no one in our family ever read it. Catholics have Catecisms (sp?) where we were taught church rules intermingled with the bible. We had our Missles for prayers & invocations, etc. We had our song books to sing. They covered everything.....just like the WTBTS. Bluesaphire - you're right about the Catholics not being as near as controlling as they used to be. Ever watch Sex in the City? The attorney was getting her baby baptised to appease her boyfriend's mother. She met with the priest and crossed out everything that wasn't politically correct. The baptism was almost silent. The comment was........"Catholics are so glad to get somebody they'll say - or not say - about anything." Agreed. "Way Back then" - and I've heard Canadian Catholics were much worse - the Catholics were very high control. We just never realized that JW's were. And JW's were so good at mocking/tearing down the Catholic Church! I knew their background....but the Catholics had the same creedo as jw's today "We're imperfect and we'd prefer not to talk about specifics." waiting
is it just my imagination, or are a disproportionate of jws ex-catholic?.
were you a catholic before a jw?.
why did you feel that the jw religion was "better" than the "catholic" one?.
I started studying with jw's in 1968. The old Truth book was written intentionally for Catholics. They were targeted - even the woman who studied with me told me this.
Why? During that time, a lot of Catholics were rebelling against the church. Up until the early 60's - the church was tight with their flock. If a woman died in childbirth - after her 8th baby........well, it was God's plan. yada yada.
Also, we were the hippie generation........we were "dropping out" of everything.
Also, the jw's were looked up as an "anti-establishment group" ......and this same group of young people bought into that idea. Remember the college riots, the race riots, the anti-Viet Nam riots? Yep. our generation. It would seem we were rioting against anybody/anything, eh?
Also, VietNam was going on - and our friends were being killed. We didn't understand war at all - we just knew so many of us were being drafted off to jungles.
If memory serves me - that time period was the biggest influx of Catholics into the WT.
waiting - former catholic
ps: Also, the Catholic Church is a high-control group. So are JW's. Just like when we marry - we *tend* to go back into what we know.....whether we know it or not. "tend" is an important word, btw.
i took my kids on a vacation to disney world...their dream vacation, actually, although it didn't turn out that way.
midway through we get a call that their grandmother (the real one, who was never a dub and who hasn't ever turned her back on the kids or on me even thru my divorce from her son, unlike my own jw mother) is in serious condition at the hospital.
we spent one of our 'vacation' days sitting in a hospital icu waiting room, timing our 15 minute visits so that we could see her, and throughout it all the kids were troopers.
Hey Dana,
I wasn't sure to post my viewpoint........but read Lady Lee's comments. By allowing, even encouraging your children to visit their grandmother, is a gift in disguise. Some parents shield their kids into a Happy World.
The truth is, your kids will be exposed to death, if not now, then later on. With you there with them, they can learn how to handle it, show emotion, show love, and show sorrow. They also have you there to comfort them, to talk with them.....to mirror how you deal with all these emotions. And they can offer the same back to you, and their grandmother.
Some kids just see their families/parents close the door & drink.....for days, weeks. One would suspect they're learning to handle their pain/anger/sorrow the same way. There are other, equally negative, ways of handling these situations also.
((((((((((((((Sorry for such heartbreak ))))))))))))) - but you and your kids are doing a marvelous job in handling it with love & dignity.
Congratulations, mom.
waiting
watchtower 1976 10/15 632-6. .
the "mark" of the beast would identify the one having it as belonging to that "wild beast," giving it full support.
ellicott's bible commentary notes that the mark 'surely means the acquiescence to the principals of this tyrannical world-power.'.
Awake 9-1-03, page 23 as told by Enelesi Mzanga, age 82
p 24, column 2 " Religious Persecution Begins
In 1964, Malawi became an independent nation. When officials of the ruling party learned of our neutral stand on politics, they tried to force us to buy party membership cards.
p 25 Arrive at our house, they asked if we had a party card. I said: "No, I haven't bought one. I am not going to buy it now, and neither am I going to buy one in the future."
p 26 Hunted Like Animals
In October 1972, ...(3rd para) At that time, a young Christian brother came to our house with an urgent message for Emmas (her husband). 'The Youth League is plotting to behead you, put your head on a pole, and take it to the local chiefs.' Emmas quickly left home, but not before he had made arrangements for us to follow him as soon as possible. Hurriedly, I sent off the children. Then, just as I was about to leave, ten members of the Youth League appeared, looking for Emmas. They broke into our house but discovered that Emmas was gone. Angrily, the men dragged me into a nearby surgarcane field, where they kicked me and beat me with sugarcane stalks. Then they left me for dead. After regaining consciousness, I crawled back home.
p 27 (1st full para) Two months later a convoy of buses and military trucks parked along the main road, and hundreds of heavily armed Zambian soldiers invaded the camp. They told us that nice houses had been built for us and that they were providing transportation to hep us get there. We knew that this was not true. The soldiers began to push people onto the trucks and buses, and panic broke out. The soldiers began firing in the air with their automatic wespons, and thousands of our brothers and sisters scattered in terror.
In the confusion, Emmas was accidentally knocked down and trampled, but one of the brothers helped him to his feet. We thought that this was the beginning of the great tribulation.
_______________________________________________________________
Yet during this exact same time period, Mexican elders had written the WTBTS in NY for guidance - because they had read of the horrors going on in Malawi to Jehovah's Witnesses. Why did they write?
The Mexican elders were writing requesting guidance for their own political situation. The elders & brothers were joining the Mexican military, but then bribing local officials so that they wouldn't have to go into training. "Everybody does that in Mexico." (paraphrasing)
The WTBTS's response: The GB couldn't approve in writing what they were doing.....but told them to "Do in Rome as the Romans Do." (paraphrasing)
This if found in Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz, including images of the letters the Mexican elders sent to the WTBTS. I believe it also contains scanned images of the WTBTS's response.
All for a $.25 Malawian political card.....when the Mexican brothers were actually joining the Mexican armed forces - then using bribery (which is a crime also.)
A true - avoidable - tragedy caused by the teachings of the WTBTS - Jehovah's Witnesses.
