dear anyone who might be reading this from bethel:.
first of all, i am a "brother" in the congregation.
i'm not going to meetings, nor am i following your unwritten rules - but i am not df or da.. there are two articles in the june 15, 2003 watchtower that you should be ashamed of.. the first article is on pope alexander vi.. here, the article bashes the pope (whom by the way, i don't think deserves anything less).. however, the article talks about everything from him living in luxury, affairs and other bad stuff he's done.. and then the article brings out, (paraphrasing) "well, if this guy is so bad, what does it tell about the religion.".
Well, hey good-lookin'
I've got the copies (at least the one I was referring to - and I can get the other ones) ....and I've got a copier, envelopes & stamps.........
you thinkin' what ah'm thinkin'?
lol - or somebody with both will read this thread!
dear anyone who might be reading this from bethel:.
first of all, i am a "brother" in the congregation.
i'm not going to meetings, nor am i following your unwritten rules - but i am not df or da.. there are two articles in the june 15, 2003 watchtower that you should be ashamed of.. the first article is on pope alexander vi.. here, the article bashes the pope (whom by the way, i don't think deserves anything less).. however, the article talks about everything from him living in luxury, affairs and other bad stuff he's done.. and then the article brings out, (paraphrasing) "well, if this guy is so bad, what does it tell about the religion.".
lol - Con - wish I had a scanner too!
Back to you, Nathan.............
waiting
just trying to get my head around this one.
with the jailing last week of a london dub paedophile, i was wondering: .
is it the religion itself that gives these perverts the feeling that they are invincible and immune from punishment when they commit these acts?
However - from my experience and reading on this I would still say that the paedophile has turned his perversion into a "game" in as much as he can explaint it away to the victim as such - one which disgust most of us, but to the perpetrator he is calculating and prepared to move very slowly and steadily gaining (misusing) the childs trust or building fear of consequence ......"if anyone finds out about our little game........."
In some instances, yes. In some - no. The illusion of a game is just wording sometimes. "War games" for instance. "Friendly Fire." It doesn't mean that it's that way all the time. "Daddy's playing games." It's not just the pedophile....it becomes society in general which rationalizes. Some pedophiles aren't playing any games. They're as deadly serious as any other rapist. Oh, some have fun while their raping......but that doesn't make it a game. Just because a person laughs....doesn't mean it's funny.
I've never read where Ted Bundy thought he was innocent of raping and killing women. And some of them were quite young too.
Yes its not innocent play but to the paedophile who can rationalise away his behaviour he cannot see himself as an abuser.
Your experience is different than mine. From what I gather, you've been part of judicial committees as an elder where a man's come in and been shocked that the innocent play (in his perception or rationalization) could be viewed as child molestation. He had deluded himself into this thought process. Ok. no problem.
My experience is entirely different. My father had no delusions about what he was doing. I was his, so were all the animals in his house. And tying me in with the animals is just fraught with psychological implications. He was raping & beating me & my brother, he was raping & gutting animals, he was having sex with anything that moved within his range...or didn't move. It didn't matter. He had full control - and he knew it.
It was not a game with him. He was deadly serious - and very good. A very quiet man.
I don't discount the type of experience you've had - nor the pedophiles you'e come into contact with. Please don't discount my experiences. It was just my bad luck to come into contact with another type of pedophile. He knew what he was doing....so did his friends. I remember.
just trying to get my head around this one.
with the jailing last week of a london dub paedophile, i was wondering: .
is it the religion itself that gives these perverts the feeling that they are invincible and immune from punishment when they commit these acts?
hello pork chop,
Still at it, eh?
This is a pretty good thread except for Farkel and gumby's lunacy. A pedophile would want nothing to do with a high control group with continual scrutiny of their actions.There is NO "continual scrutiny of their actions." Many brothers in our area have access to kids. There's just not enough men around.....and so many sisters with all these kids. Much like a priest situation, a leader of any kind of kid's group. There's other valid reasons why any closed religion, one where women & female (in particular) children are considered of lesser value than any man "according to the Bible".
I do believe that when it comes to situational pedophilia, especially with older girls, that some of the repressive, restrictive atmosphere in the Organization may play a part. Some guy that's not happy with his situation and limited social skills sees an available sexual outlet and takes it without considering the ramifications of what he's doing. I know of two situations where that's happened."situational pedophilia" - I understand the concept .....and would think that's why some social workers put families back together after a child has been molested, particularily when the offender and/or family is will to go through counseling. My god, I've actually agreed with you. Thanks. waiting
just trying to get my head around this one.
with the jailing last week of a london dub paedophile, i was wondering: .
is it the religion itself that gives these perverts the feeling that they are invincible and immune from punishment when they commit these acts?
Hello Core,
Thanks you for your insight and comments. For one specific type of pedophile, I can see that they might be right on target.
Paedophiles are so convincing that over time they groom innocent victims by persuasive talk - they are also persuading themselves that they are not wrongdoers. Significant psychological evidence is available to expose the mindset of such people. Sadly I have had judicial experience dealing with paedophilia (I have too much respect for the victims to give specific details) and I can say with confidence that the perpetrators are shocked and affronted when accused of the crime - they are convinced that they are involved in some childish and innocent play.
I can understand a man/woman (I was just giving my child a bath!) rationalizing. This might be true of fondlers, even digital penetrators. But a man who has his penis inserted in a vagina, rectum, mouth, knows where his penis is.....and it's not innocent play. A female who's inserting semi-large objects into a child in same areas......she knows.
Men have also rationalized (and women too) "She/he wanted it." Even 5 yr olds...somehow "wanted it."
There are all kinds of pedophiles. Some actually don't physically molest children - get their kicks from pornography, etc. A police officer was telling me of some pedophiles wear depends, etc., and then have the kid sit on their lap.....then they tickle the kid causing them to "wiggle all over"....bringing the pedophile to orgasm. The child never realizes what has happened. And the molester might be shocked to be considered a molester." Others tickle other places. Wrestling is a great time to grope....so is swimming.
Others use fingers, objects. Others rape. I strongly feel that an adult who's raping a child knows what he/she's doing. They may not admit it......but they know.
waiting
reminders of an abuser
forty years later.
you reach out from the grave.
Awwwwwwww Lee,
Sorry about your stupid health problems. The wait is horrible - I remember my sister going through it. But she's out running this morning.
The fool has become a militant political person to boot! She's actually having a ball just being free.
I once got a Christmas job in a department store as Santa claus. A little girl rushed up to me and said, "Hello, Father Christmas."
I replied, "Bugger off, I'm not on duty until eleven." WC Fields
Thought I'd try to get you to smile while I hugged you.(((((((((((((((Lee)))))))))))))))))))
waiting
just trying to get my head around this one.
with the jailing last week of a london dub paedophile, i was wondering: .
is it the religion itself that gives these perverts the feeling that they are invincible and immune from punishment when they commit these acts?
This is one of the most balanced threads on the pedophiles themselves I've read. Thank you all.
Good to see you, Farkel - All parents know how easy it is to get kids to believe in The Boogeyman, the monster in the closet, the monster under his bed....but somehow we can't believe that an adult in authority position over a child could use these same types of props to scare children into submission. Groom, hell.....terrorize. You kill a kid's pet graphically in front of them....you've got that kid's rapt attention.
Even average religious people use these same props to keep their kids in line: Do you want to go to Hell? Do you know how hot hellfire is? Do you want to be killed at Armageddon? Do you want Satan to see you? These things work with little kids.
Thanks Odrade, for your posts - very insightful. I've also learned that there are people like the man you described. Driven by compulsions, able to deny their consciences. However, I truly believe with my father - he had no values when it came to his brutality. He just did when the urge came forth. He had the type of mind the Nazi's did. Torture on one level, go home and hug the wife on another level. Existing side by side, but never touching. Suspect he was a true sociopath.
My younger brother? I think he was quite different. He sexually abused a child for years. But I think he was acting out of terrible anger at my father, who abused him horribly. But I don't think my brother had the blankness of empathy my father had.
Btw, my father was an atheist - very much a loner. My brother never wanted anything to do with religion.
waiting
dear anyone who might be reading this from bethel:.
first of all, i am a "brother" in the congregation.
i'm not going to meetings, nor am i following your unwritten rules - but i am not df or da.. there are two articles in the june 15, 2003 watchtower that you should be ashamed of.. the first article is on pope alexander vi.. here, the article bashes the pope (whom by the way, i don't think deserves anything less).. however, the article talks about everything from him living in luxury, affairs and other bad stuff he's done.. and then the article brings out, (paraphrasing) "well, if this guy is so bad, what does it tell about the religion.".
Hello Confucious,
Welcome to our forum -even if I didn't do this the first 23 posts.
Enjoyed your comments. My old mil brings us a set of mags every two weeks faithfully. And we reimburse her, as she faithfully pays for them at the KH.....and we're nearly the only ones on her mag route that do help her. Makes one wonder who actually pays for all those mags, eh?
I'll make sure to look up those articles. I remember reading the bribery one - and it was weak. In other words, "be careful" lest we give too much to people we give gifts too." Perhaps the jw's are getting into anniversaries and weddings too much? The newest Awake has an article on "Should a Christian use Wedding Gift Registeries?" (paraphrasing)......combining, should the giver's name be annouced with the opening of the gift.? So maye bribes, gifts, and announcing the giver is setting a pattern for What Mature Christians With Bible Trained Consciences Should Do.
But the Catholic one is interesting.....will look that one up for sure.
Btw, in the Sept 1 Awake, there is a life experience by a 80+ Malawian Sister. She recalls the years of terror put on the JW's because they refused to by a "political card." What the woman fails to bring out (or it was edited out) - is that the political card only cost $.25. For that, she was nearly beaten to death, her husband trampled, hunted like animals, driven from their country, put in jail......
I doubt is this sincere old woman realizes that the Mexican elder brothers were writing the Society at the same time (after reading the WT articles on the Malawian Brothers Slaughter) asking for spiritual advice on how they handle military involvement in Mexico.
The JW men enter into the Mexican military service, then bribe the officials so that they don't have to do active service. Basically, the WTBTS - "God's Only Channel to Mankind" responded "when in Rome, do as the Romans do." They also noted that if the Mexicans got caught....the WTBTS wouldn't come to their defense.
Scanned copies of the Mexican & WTBTS letters are in Crisis of Conscience. I doubt the old Malawi sister will have the chance to read how she was nearly beaten to death.....while the WT said it was ok for the Mexicans to use bribery to save their asses.
waiting
is it just my imagination, or are a disproportionate of jws ex-catholic?.
were you a catholic before a jw?.
why did you feel that the jw religion was "better" than the "catholic" one?.
hello bluesapphire,
I tend to agree totally with Mike. MOST Catholics - in fact, every Catholic I ever met - knows almost nothing of Bible details. They may know the gist................but I've even talked with nuns in door-to-door who didn't know where the book of John could be found. And did the jw's snicker when they got back to the car. Even priests were unlearned about the bible. They knew the basics - and the ones I met, didn't seem to care about the rest. This does NOT mean that same persons weren't well informed in many other areas....just not the bible verses jw's dwelled upon.
In Indiana, the use of the term "Bible Tradition" meant the basic idea was found in the bible (or biblical characters)....but the Catholic Church then used the idea however they wanted. Ie: Peter is the Rock that Christ's church was founded upon." "Keys of St. Peter" "Sacred Mysteries" etc. The CC, imho, bases most of their teachings on tradition......and I think most, if not all, other Christian Churches do the same. Or they base them totally on the bible - which is even more depressing.
Just because someone is ignorant of the bible doesn't necessarily dictate a negativity. It could be a compliment.
waiting
as i was musing in my shop yesterday gluing poly pipe together, (hmm wonder if the fumes got to me) i was thinking of those that still hold to a) the literalness of the biblical creation story and b) thinking that this obviates the theory of evolution.
it crossed my mind that the human inmune system, by its very existence forces one to reconsider one or both positions.
any thoughts?
ok carmel.
last time you came on here you said you're wife was making you into a more gentle mannered man. obviously, she has failed.
please show this post to her................and then explain to her ....her failure.
Don't imagine you can change a man unless he's in nappies. - Jasmine Birtles
Catchya later, smelly!
wait
