Posts by XJWBill

15

For XJWBill - about the Evil Christianity

by Norm in

jw
friends

hello bill,.

i have been away for a while so i didnt see your reply to my post about the final solution.

posted: may 25, 2001 1:50:01 am .

XJWBill

Howdy Norm,

Your survey of Christian intolerance is very good, but you omit the diatribes of John Chysostom against the Jews, the burning of the Library at Alexandria, the damnation clauses of the Athanasian Creed, the extermination of the Albigenses, the Spanish Inquisition, the conquest of Mexico and Peru, and the sack of Constantinople. You also fail to include Lord Acton's observation that "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely."

All these misdeeds are well known, and are indeed cause for shame to those who bear the name of Christ. I have no quarrel with the historical record, nor indeed with your sense of outraged justice, which I share.

My objection still stands, however, to your original statement that "Christianity is an evil force." That overreaching statement ignores the other side of the ledger--the immense good that Christian belief and Christian people have done and continue to do, despite all the misuse and misapplication of Christian teachings.

Your survey completely ignores the good side of the Christian religion through the centuries--the preservation of learning, the promotion of art and music, the tempering of justice with mercy, the protection of the weak against the strong, the succor of the poor, the weak, the sick, and the friendless, the rule of law, the abolition of slavery, the elevation of the status of women, the concept of social justice, and many other things so familiar to us moderns that we take them for granted, forgetting that their origins were in Christian thought and teaching.

When I brought up the American Constitution, I momentarily forgot that you are from Norway (your English is excellent), so perhaps the analogy is not quite clear for you. However, your ancestors (and, by the way, some of mine) were the rapacious Norsemen who put half of Europe to sword and flame, at the behest of no Christian God.

Would it not, therefore, be as silly and illogical of me to conclude that Norway is an "evil force" as much as your conclusion about Christianity?

The problem is, your assertion goes both too far and not far enough at the same time. Either you must limit your condemnation of Christianity to particular places and times--or you must go on to say that "Humanity is an evil force." We could produce plenty of historical and current facts to prove that. (Present company excepted, of course.)

Christians indeed went from being a persecuted minority to being the dominant culture, spawning in Europe a legacy of anti-Semitism. But that is flawed human nature, not Christian teaching, at work (see Lord Acton's comment again).

We see the same sort of thing at work now in the modern Israelis--from being a persecuted minority,they in their own land are in constant conflict with the Palestinians, who feel very tyrannized, apparently. The mutual slaughters of Hindus and Muslims in India at the time of Partition, and since, are another example of mankind's wicked impulses--xenophobic and utterly tribal--at work.

And from there we could go on to survey a myriad of conlicts, past and present, on every continent, an including societies that officially renounce all religious belief. The history of the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, and other states shows that atheism is certainly no sure path to sweetness and light.

If you must call Christianity evil, you must also call humankind evil.

And you would be right, to a certain point. As I have said before, all things human are a mixture of good and bad. The purpose of religion is to lead us toward the ultimate good, not of ourselves and our "tribe" only, but those good things that transcend our human weaknesses, selfish impulses, and egocentric desires.

And if you cannot or will not admit that goodness exists in Christianity and all the other religions that teach the often-ignored Golden Rule, then I would tremble to live in a society ruled by folks like yourself--for no society that depends upon the natural, innate goodness and justice of human nature alone would long remain either good or just. Such utopias have been tried, and have all failed miserably.

Jelly's comment is very much to the point: the reason for all the bloodshed and intolerance is man's irreligious desire for power, control, or simply for a good fight. Not to omit greed for wealth.

Well, Norm, I doubt that either of us is going to convince or convert the other, so let us agree to disagree. We could use up many kilobytes disputing all these things that have been well covered elsewhere by greater minds than yours or mine.

All that I have already stated in this and previous posts is a sufficient answer to your dogmatic assertions. And I believe that your sense of outraged justice is in fact God at work in you, though you do not, I'm sure, think so.

To do justice and love kindness is, in my view, part of the chief obligation of enlightened men. Can we agree on this one point? If so, then let me close with Wesley's words, "Is thy heart as my heart? Then, come, friend, give me thy hand."

Peace,

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

15

For XJWBill - about the Evil Christianity

by Norm in

jw
friends

hello bill,.

i have been away for a while so i didnt see your reply to my post about the final solution.

posted: may 25, 2001 1:50:01 am .

XJWBill

Howdy Norm,

I first started to write a terse reply to your latest post, advising you to go find a JW if you are spoiling for a fight. They love these sorts of debates, but I have long since gotten over the desire to save, convert, or change anyone. It's not my job anymore.

However, upon reflection, it occurred to me that your pugnacious attitude may in fact be a cover for a real desire to find some goodness in Christianity after all (pray forgive me if that is too “psychoanalytical”). Therefore, I will proceed this one more time to treat your questions as a serious inquiry and give you the best answer I can—-though if you really want a deep, intellectual defense of Christian belief versus the problem of evil, I must refer you to C. S. Lewis (e.g., "The Problem of Pain") and other apologists better than I.

Your equating Christianity with Nazism is absurd on its face. The guiding idea at the core of Nazism was overweening pride--the self-aggrandizement of the German people in general, and the National Socialist party in particular, at the expense of all other peoples and parties. Its selfish and hate-filled philosophy, if you can call it that, harked backed to that of Nietzche and other immodest, atheistic, ego-worshipping thinkers who essentially declared that only a “superman” or a superior race was fit to enjoy freedom and domination of the world, while all other men, inferior and servile, ought and must be subservient, sacrificing their freedom, industry, and lives for the benefit of the few.

It is no wonder, then, that such a philosophy produced criminals and crimes on a scale utterly unparalleled in history, so that the exact opposite of your statement is true, and was recognized to be true by the people and leaders of those Christian nations—-as they were called then—-that fought to exterminate the filth of Nazism from the earth: namely, that the crimes of Hitler and his minions made all other crimes pale in comparison.

My own father, who was not, by the way, particularly religious, fought in that war against evil; was actually under fire and fired back at the Germans, may have killed a few, though he was not proud of the fact. However, he and everyone else at the war’s end was very glad of the triumph of what Mr. Churchill routinely called Christian civilization. And for you, Norm, to tell me now that my father and all his kin and friends who joined in that fight were merely following another, even more heinous, evil philosophy—-well, it is a patently juvenile and ridiculous statement, and if you have any conscience at all, you should be ashamed to make it.

Your black-and-white vision of what you call “reality” and history is in fact exactly what the Nazis—-and other totalitarian regimes-—sought to inculcate in their deluded followers. Hitler would have loved you, for your lack of balance, moderation, and insight would have made you ripe for the picking. (You fell for the Watchtower, didn't you?)

In contrast to the straw man of Nazism that you have set up, the core idea at the heart of Christianity is, not a selfish grab for domination, but self-sacrificing love. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you,” “Love God with all your strength, and your neighbor as yourself,” “He that would be greatest of all must be the servant of all,” “Do not return evil for evil, but keep overcoming the evil with the good,” “Bless your enemies and pray for them who persecute you,” “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends,” “I say to you, you must forgive your brother seven times seventy times,” “Let us love, neither in words nor with the tongue, but in deed and in truth,” “He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.”

Now, Norm—-regardless of whether you believe Jesus is the Son of God, or merely an itinerant teacher-—regardless of whether you believe the Bible is divinely inspired, or merely a collection of solely man-made writings—you cannot with any credibility equate the filthy, hateful ravings of a madman like Hitler—-or any other of that ilk—-with the central impulse of Christianity, as noted in the quotations above. To lump both philosophies together as “evil forces” is utterly to destroy all meaning of the words “evil” and “good”—-to speak utter and obvious nonsense that even a schoolchild can recognize.

And now, having established the philosophical background, let me proceed to your main point: that “Christianity” has bloodthirstily sought nothing but genocide, slavery, witch burnings, intolerance, etc., etc.

But to speak honestly, we must first distinguish what you really mean by the word “Christianity.” The word can refer to a system of thought and belief, which I have just demonstrated is anything but evil. Or the word can refer collectively to those organizations—-Churches—-that have promoted and taught Christian beliefs. Or, more loosely, the word can refer to political entities that offer at least nominal allegiance either to a particular Church or to Christian ideals in general. Or even more loosely, it can refer to the mass of Christian believers in general. The latter two ideas are usually more particularly refered to as “Christendom” to distinguish people and governments from beliefs and ideas.

So are you saying that 1) churches, 2) governments, or 3) individuals have sometimes been guilty of terrible deeds, all the while calling themselves Christian? I think that really is part of what you are getting at, and if you will limit your statement to that, you are quite right. Proud, self-righteous, greedy men and women, as individuals, groups, or organziations, have from time to time either A) turned a deaf ear to the voice of their consciences, ignoring the basic Christian principles, B) by defect of logic and fullness of pride misconstrued those principles, or C) worst of all, misused the sublime teachings of Christ as a pretext, a cover, for their own lustful, greedy motives.

You are right to be indignant at such a perversion of good teachings, as are all decent-minded Christians themselves.

But you do not limit yourself to such a circumscribed statement. You proceed to assert or imply that all Christians in all times and all places have been all evil. Norm, that is really childish of you. Not to mention patently false, as “history,” to which you are so fond of appealing, also bears full and ample witness.

By way of analogy, let me refer you to the Constitution of the United States, a document which explicitly condones the practice of slavery and by implication the subjugation of the Indian peoples. Does that fact make it an evil document, Norm, and the government which it establishes an evil government for an evil people? American democracy is imperfect, even flawed, but is it completely and absolutely and irredeemably evil? There are some who would answer yes—-but they are, like a certain disturbed individual now awaiting execution in Oklahoma, themselves obviously terribly, terribly flawed in their thinking.

I have not the time nor space here to make a catalogue of all good Christian people through the ages and all good deeds done by them; these are just as truly “facts” as the misdeeds you cite. If you are as well-read as you say your are, they should all, or at least a great many of them, be well known to you. If Christianity is truly and thoroughly “evil,” how then can you account for the great goodness of such “facts” as St. Francis, John Newton, and Mother Teresa, to name but three of many millions of good people—-good by reason of, not despite, their religion?

Nor do time and space allow me to recount the unselfish goodness of many obscure, unknown Christians of my acquaintance, my own family, friends, neighbors, and passing strangers. Even I, one of the least of Christians, have on occasion risked my safety, my money, or at least my own convenience to do something good for others—-though I will not be so immodest as to recount the uninteresting details here. Surely you have taken your head out of the history books long enough to look around you? Have you no eyes to see, Norm? Are we Christians really as wicked as those Nazis? Really, Norm? Really?

At this very moment, all over the world, there are many millions of Christians who would, if they knew you needed help, give you food, shelter, clothing, medical care—-even, if need be, endanger their own lives to save yours, Norm--strictly on account of their "evil" religion, not because it would profit them an iota. How many Nazis or other such selfish, hateful folk would do the same for you? Is it really all the same? Really?

Even the God I worship loves you enough to die for you, Norm—-and did, as I devoutly believe. What more do you want?

Believe as you wish, and be happy.

Peace,

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

15

For XJWBill - about the Evil Christianity

by Norm in

jw
friends

hello bill,.

i have been away for a while so i didnt see your reply to my post about the final solution.

posted: may 25, 2001 1:50:01 am .

XJWBill

Howdy Norm,

The phone lines in our small town have been down for a week, so I too have been away from the board, and only just came across this thread by accident.

I stand by my original remarks. To say that Christianity (or any other major religion) is an evil force, with no redeeming goodness in it, is to commit a logical fallacy: you are setting up a false dilemma, the either/or fallacy, in precisely the same way as people who make statements like the following:

All blacks are dirty.
All Mexicans are lazy.
All Indians are savages.
All women are emotional.
All men are jocks.
All blondes are dumb.
All smokers are stupid.
All gays are sex fiends.
All Polacks are idiots.
All politicians are crooked.
All Southerners are rednecks.
All Northerners are rude.
All whites are racists.
And so on . . . .

Blanket statements like these, and like yours, are almost always false. To say or imply that all Christians are taught to do only evil by their religion--and that they only do good when they "ignore their religion"--is laughably illogical and childish, and ignores the many millions of Christians through the ages who have done precisely the opposite.

Likewise, to assert that irreligious, "enlightened" folk have always been "wise and courageous" and produced nothing but sweetness and light and delightful "open" societies is blatantly false.

Perhaps you should read a little further in history.

I think your attempted psychoanalysis of me is quite off the mark. Knowledge and facts doesn’t have anything to do with being bitter, it is a conclusion I have arrived at by considering facts, not feelings, Bill.

With all due respect to you, Norm, the fact that your assertions are so illogical demonstrates that your argument is NOT based on facts. Just like the WT, you are indeed ignoring all the facts that do not fit your hypothesis--facts like St. Francis, John Newton, and Mother Teresa, among many millions of others, some famous, some obscure.

What else can I conclude, then, but that your statements are based on feelings of revulsion for everything Christian?

However, having said all that, let me hasten to say you are entitled to feel and say whatever you like about Christianity. I personally feel no need whatsoever to convert you or anyone else to anything at all. I am merely taking the opportunity on a public board to point out an error in thinking. Believe what you please, and be happy.

And by the way, I was not attempting to "psychoanalyze" you, Norm. I was merely offering you my sympathy as a potential friend, based on what I, presumptuously perhaps, assumed was a common history of mistreatment by the WTBTS. Please forgive my offense.

Peace,

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

82

Has anyone felt like leaving God altogether?

by lookingnow22 in

jw
friends

i know that the answer is yes, but it would help me to hear your sentiments on this.

.

after you decided that the wbts, and thus jw's were not god's chosen earthly organization did you feel like you wanted to leave and forget god altogether?.

XJWBill

Good topic. To answer the original question, I was atheistic/agnostic for a long time after leaving "the Lie." I figured either God hated me, or there was no God.

Many years afterwards, I was led back to traditional Christianity in the Episcopal Church, and particularly to the sacrament of Communion.

However, I believe that the God I know is bigger than the church or the Bible--every lovely thought, every helpful deed, every kind word and loving action is Him at work in us--whether we are Christian or whatever. Matthew 25 tells me that love, not correct belief, is the criterion for admission to Heaven.

C.S. Lewis is my recommendation for a thoughtful discussion of Christian beliefs for anyone interested.

BTW, being as I am a gay man, returning to traditional Christian belief has not been a light and easy thing. I could have chosen many other ways that would have been easier. But I was led and drawn here.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

137

Face/Pyramids on Mars! What do you think?

by qwerty in

jw
friends

the things you look into without the wt cynical mind behind every thought.. [ http://www.geocities.com/area51/6683/cydonia-face.html].

qwerty .

justa surfin!

XJWBill

*FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE*
FROM NASA COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE, JOHNSON SPACE CENTER

Houston, May 27 (AP).--NASA's top officials confirmed today that repeated satellite observations of Mars have revealed the Red Planet's most extraordinary secret: scattered about the surface of the planet are pyramids constructed of carved stone.

"We waited to make the official announcement until we were absolutely certain," said Milton H. Wenschel, NASA spokesman. "We've counted and counted, had the orbiter make repeated passes, looked at the photos in every kind of light known to man. There's just no doubt about it."

"Spread over the surface of Mars from the subtropical regions to the equator is a giant chain of pyramids. These are definitely not natural formations. Our technology allows us to see clearly that the pyramids were carved into big blocks, then fitted together."

When asked how many pyramids were known to exist, Wenschel became ebullient. "Exactly 1,914! And they are laid out in a sort of connect-the-dots pattern. We're still analyzing all the possibilities, but right now, it looks like a sort of watchtower pattern."

Meanwhile, in a related development, officials at Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, have announced a major press conference for 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. . . .

Bill

4

More witness woman than men?

by Downdog01 in

jw
friends

is the ratio of jw women to men in america kept and freely known.

do they have breakdowns by age?

my guess is more ladies than gentleman, but i'm curious about the truth if it is known.. thanks,.

XJWBill

For 2000 U.S. Census figures, go to:

http://factfinder.census.gov

11

do you see what i see?

by New Eyes in

jw
friends

licensed & registered shippers 1999-2000 season.

the watchtower society is a licensed citrus-shipper in florida.

east 2nd street extension, lehigh acres, fl 33936 * phone: 941-369-1977 * fax: 941-369-3245. .

XJWBill

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society--OF FLORIDA????!!!!

Obviously, there've been a few developments since I left in 1977.

But why the heck would the WTBTS want to get into the citrus-shipping business? Especially since they don't serve meals at assemblies any more.

BTW, is anyone else as shocked (yeah, right) as I am at the names of the new corporations--the "Christian Congregation" and the "Religious Order" of Jehovah's Witnesses? Back when I was a publisher, they would have sounded way too much like "Christendom" for comfort.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

54

WHY THE WORLD IS DOOMED

by You Know in

jw
friends

in referring to the preflood world, peter said that the heavens and the earth had been stored up with water, and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.

the christian prophet went on to say: "by the same word, the heavens and the earth that are now stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of the judgment and of the destruction of ungodly men.

in furtherance of highlighting the apostate's blasphemy that jehovah is going to come streaking out of the clear blue sky one fine day and slaughter billions of innocents while they sleep in their beds, the apostle's brief comments on the topic of jehovah's judgments contains some interesting insights.

XJWBill

EXPAT AND JAVA:

ROTFLMAO!!! You guys are cracking me up! I'd write more, but I've got to go change my briefs now . . . .

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

9

I don't take the Bible literally . . ?

by patio34 in

jw
friends

just a little thought on that subject.

is that like you wouldn't take "snow white and the 7 dwarfs" literal?

comparing the bible to a fairy tale, or myth?

XJWBill

Interesting topic, Pat, and one I'm sure all of us freed WT slaves have had to struggle with and answer to our own satisfaction.

As an orthodox Christian now (Episcopalian), I subscribe whole-heartedly to the essential teachings of the historic Church, as summarized in the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds. And as an Anglican, I believe, as our Prayer Book says, that the Bible "contains all things necessary for salvation." (Which is different from believing all things in the Bible are necessary for salavation.)

However, we Anglicans have always based our understanding on what is called the "three-legged stool" of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. (I believe churches in the Calvinist tradition add a fourth leg, Experience.) Each leg balances and illuminates the others.

So, speaking strictly for myself, I don't see a need to consider every word and punctuation mark of the Bible as coming directly from God. It is not "inerrant," as the many variations in the text from one ancient manuscript to another make clear. However, only a tiny fraction of thousands of variations affect the sense of any significant passages: on the whole, the main thoughts still come through clearly, Bible scholars say.

So leaving inerrancy aside, what about the question you raise of "literal" meanings? Again, my own view coincides with that of C. S. Lewis, who in his book "Miracles" expressed it better than I can here: it depends on which PART of the Bible you are talking about.

Remember, the Bible is not one continuous manuscript; rather, it is a COLLECTION of 66 books, written by many men over many centuries. Some of those books were meant, at the time of writing, to be factual histories, like I and II Samuel, I and II Kings, I and II Chronicles; some were meant to be poetic song lyrics, like Psalms and Song of Solomon; some were the record of phophets' deeds and visions, like Daniel, et al. And so on.

In the NT, you have the Gospels and Acts, which detail the activities and speech of Christ and his disciples; letters written by various Apostles to individuals and churches; and the apocalyptic vision of Revelation, deliberately written in metaphors and symbols.

So to ask, "Should the Bible be taken literally?" is meaningless unless you are specifying which chapter and verse you mean. Some parts were never meant to be taken literally (the number 144,000 especially springs to mind), while others were.

Taken as a whole, the Bible comprises a collection of books, selected out of many others written in ancient times, which shows the history of God's dealings with mankind and the outworking of His promise to send a Messiah, a Savior, who Christians believe was Jesus, the Christ.

Nevertheless, Christians, in my view, are not under obligation to take every passage literally. To use only one example, Origen, an early Doctor of the Church and a great intellectual, wrote in the 2nd century to the effect that "no thinking Christian can believe such an old wives' tale as that the earth was created in only six days."

I don't feel a need to regard the six days of Creation, or tales like that of Jonah and the whale, as being literally true--they simply embody in metaphor a certain truth about God or man or matters of the heart. In the same way, the patriotic song lyric that goes "Thine alabaster cities gleam" does not mean our cities are literally made of a soft white stone--it's merely a poetic way of expressing a certain view of or truth about America.

As Mr. Lewis puts it, the earlier parts of the Bible are often real history mixed with a good amount of myth or legend or metaphor. (That there was a real flood of some kind seems to be confirmed by a parallel account in the ancient Epic of Gilgamesh, for example--but probably not literally covering the entire planet.) When we come to the recorded sayings and deeds of Christ and His disciples, we are on firmer ground.

At which point, I'll stop, because to go further would get into questions of doctine beyond what your original question asked. Besides Mr. Lewis's book, I can also recommend the short overview, "Introducing the Bible" by William Barclay, a scholar of the Church of Scotland, and an entertaining writer.

Also recommended are Barclay's commentaries on each book of the Bible. He brings in a great deal of history, archaeology, and social customs to enlighten the meaning and context of each Bible verse, and is very good at bringing out the poetic meaning of passages that are sometimes mistakenly understood literally.

For me, it all comes down to Matthew 22:40 and 25:31-46.

Peace,

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

7

My Path

by Victor_E in

jw
friends

the wall that heals .

i took off for the weekend last month .

just to try & recall the whole year.

XJWBill

Beautifully written, Victor. The parallel between the needless suffering caused by the war and by the WT is one I hadn't thought of before--thanks for sharing that insight, and your pain.

All that you wrote makes me think of the line from "Steel Magnolias"--"That which does not kill us makes us stronger."

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)