Posts by Zep

23

The weirdness of posting here

by waiting in

hey, katchoo!.

it's really weird being in the basement area.

kinda like hiding out from the group....... be aware, as i learned, that if we speak here, anybody on the web can read what we say.. i did not suspect it was an orgy until three days later.

Zep

Solid: the romans post???...i think its under fred franz in bible research.BitterTruth said it all to friend anyway!..he was right on the money!

Friend does a lot of doubletalk, he's in deep...I mean, for someone who seems to know a lot about the JW religion and all its dirty past, he seems to be having a very hard time letting go.I cant imagine what that'd be like.The thought of having to let go of something that you held as absolutely True for so long would be very hard emotionally.I can only speak as a potential convert, for which i did have my own doublethink/speak process going.... JW's had a large affect on me... especially when i was 15-17. I took their stuff very seriously then.The first book i read was the Creation book, and it had an almost instant impact on me....it convinced me of Gods existence and within its pages it had the 1914 stuff...saying how JW's how foretold the future and all(a lie of course)...but that was it for me.I started trusting everything they said from then on, they were perfect..how could anyone not be of divine approval who make such great predictions was my thinking...To me the world was going to end for sure!.Yep, they did a great job of making theselves look idyllic and perfect in all that literature i read... The image i had of JW's was that of a Uptopian Dream, but it was just an AD, a PR exercise, an illusion that they were putting out and i got dupped by it... for that i feel kinda guilty, how could i be so f'king dumb!...but it wasn't my fault, heaps of people get dupped way worse than me, dupped my WT propaganda... WT lies.You know in those 2 years (15-17), i remember one incident were i actually preached to my parents all the JW stuff i knew and how the world was finished, i made a big point of the end coming!...they were worried about me to say the least!..Another time i wrote in my English journal for English class how the world was going to end, being really descriptic about it...the teacher took me aside and had a serious word to me....i really didn't care, didn't listen.For me the 2 years between...Well, maybe 3yrs from 15-18, the Dub literature had the screwiest effect on my mind.From 19-21, which is where i started going to a few rare meetings, i also started being more rational in relation to it all.. your intelligence develops as you get older obviously.My first experience at KH i actually didn't like, it wasn't how it was portrayed in their literature all, but because of all that doublethink sh*t...i rationalized the experience and put it down to my "rebelious" or immature nature at the time and just thought with a bit more maturity i would like KH and that it really was a great place like JW's told me ...Basically i was saying to myself, its not the Dub religion thats wrong...its me! which is just Bullshit.By the time i was doing the bible study, i had the intelligence and knowledge to ask some tough questions. The witness who took me for the study had to bring someone else along who knew more about everything.I saw a fair few contradictions in JW thinking, my JW literature was scattered with notes...but with doublethinking again, i just mimimised the contradictions i saw.... i made them out to be red herrings.The same way JW's rationalize blatant error and call it by a more positive name "NEW LIGHT"... sounds so nice dont it, but its all part of the lie, a big fat lie!.I broke off the study after 4 months, but in the back of my mind that sinister doublthink shit was still going on....Despite seeing error, i still believed they were right and divine...but the years after i just pushed all the stuff into the subconscious....it didn't impact me much consciously to any real degree!.A friend actually sparked my re-study of Dubs last year, brought it all back!...He sounded real convinced when we talked last year and was amazed by the 1914 prophecy in particular, like me!. So, i thought it was time to analyse their stuff again...only this time i had the NET and more maturity and intelligence eh!...Dubs didn't stand a chance in hindsight!.The down side to reading all apostate stuff i have, is that its done to me a little more than i would have liked...its certainly destroyed any faith i had in JW's, but its also made me question the existence of God and the bible itself unfortunalty.I can deal with Dubs being BS... but the idea that the bible is nonsense i find a little harder.The thought of there being nothing beyond this world i dont like at all...its a burdon...I liked the cushy idea of Gods existence.Yeah well, I really hate the WT now, i tell you...I dont like the thought of them being out there converting people like me, and impressionable people at that...some are virtual kids like i was!

Seven:Dying at Armageddon?....You really seem like nice person, so do you really think God wants you dead at Armaggeddon?.What have you really done to deserve that?.One article that i remember in the WT was to do with the concept of Hell.WT reasoning was that God is a loving God and wouldn't burn people in Hell for all eternity and therefore Christendom is not the TRUE religion...JW's of course are then completely hypocritical when they then condemn the world and all the people who arn't JW's or have been and have left to armageddon!.Its BS, they are screwing with your mind...dont let 'em!.BitterTruth made an excellent point, it was so simple its amazing people dont see it more often.All LIARS will killed by god, and the DB has LIED for 120years, they DF people on a whim and condemn them to virtual hellfire but then expect people to put complete trust in them as Gods divine organization here on Earth... all this despite being full of Sin themselves...HYPOCRITES.If your going to Hell Seven...wheres the Society going!They'll be dead at Armageddon before you i feel!

52

JW prophets or not!!

by Zep in

well they use to claim they were...of course now they dont, at least not in so many words.their very name itself however, implies that they speak for jehovah.but if its the case as they claim, that they are not his prophets & do not neccessarily speak for him then they have no right to the name "jehovah witnesses"....furthermore, if they are not prophets then how can they claim that rev11:3-4 is referring to them....pg164 of revelation..grand climax book.here it says that "my 2 witnesses shall prophesy".....but since they are not prophets then how can they prophesy....how can god cause them to prophesy?.

its all games obviously...an attempt to avoid the label "false prophet" but in the process of doing so they just end up looking even more stupid!....

Zep

BitterTruth...your Straight up...no bullsh*t, great posts BTW!

52

JW prophets or not!!

by Zep in

well they use to claim they were...of course now they dont, at least not in so many words.their very name itself however, implies that they speak for jehovah.but if its the case as they claim, that they are not his prophets & do not neccessarily speak for him then they have no right to the name "jehovah witnesses"....furthermore, if they are not prophets then how can they claim that rev11:3-4 is referring to them....pg164 of revelation..grand climax book.here it says that "my 2 witnesses shall prophesy".....but since they are not prophets then how can they prophesy....how can god cause them to prophesy?.

its all games obviously...an attempt to avoid the label "false prophet" but in the process of doing so they just end up looking even more stupid!....

Zep

?

Edited by - Zep on 10 July 2000 22:19:4

52

JW prophets or not!!

by Zep in

well they use to claim they were...of course now they dont, at least not in so many words.their very name itself however, implies that they speak for jehovah.but if its the case as they claim, that they are not his prophets & do not neccessarily speak for him then they have no right to the name "jehovah witnesses"....furthermore, if they are not prophets then how can they claim that rev11:3-4 is referring to them....pg164 of revelation..grand climax book.here it says that "my 2 witnesses shall prophesy".....but since they are not prophets then how can they prophesy....how can god cause them to prophesy?.

its all games obviously...an attempt to avoid the label "false prophet" but in the process of doing so they just end up looking even more stupid!....

Zep

Friend,

propaganda= telling people what to think, contains extreme bias, deals in simplistic black and answers, sophistry, advertising, stereotyping, empty rhetoric is constantly being thrown at the reader like a mantra proclaiming how great things are!.

If the WT wasn't so deceptive and was more like normal intellectuals they would actually try and directly rebut GTR and the rest!.This is a direct indication as to how deceptive and authoritarian they are!, they remain silent althrough, afraid of open dialogue with "worldly ones" & "apostates".They rewrite their history brilliantly in the mean time, thats another good indication as too the propaganda & authoritarian nature of the WT.

A communist state would be proud to have the GB working for them, maybe even CNN!

Another question Friend, does everyone smile as much at KH as they appear to do in the WT, i mean all those fake plastic smiles that everyone has in the Awake and WT magazines, thats not a true indication as too how happy people are at KH is it?.Are JW's really the "happiest people alive"?.

52

JW prophets or not!!

by Zep in

well they use to claim they were...of course now they dont, at least not in so many words.their very name itself however, implies that they speak for jehovah.but if its the case as they claim, that they are not his prophets & do not neccessarily speak for him then they have no right to the name "jehovah witnesses"....furthermore, if they are not prophets then how can they claim that rev11:3-4 is referring to them....pg164 of revelation..grand climax book.here it says that "my 2 witnesses shall prophesy".....but since they are not prophets then how can they prophesy....how can god cause them to prophesy?.

its all games obviously...an attempt to avoid the label "false prophet" but in the process of doing so they just end up looking even more stupid!....

Zep

Friend:Implicitly and explicitly the Society’s published comments are contrary to that notion.
===========================================

BAH BAH BAH!

Friend:When Watchtower readers see Question From Readers articles where various teachings of the Society are questioned and subsequently altered , what message do you think that sends

=============================================
It says to me they are a pack of hypocrites for continuing to blatantly say both implicitly and explicitly to potential converts and their members that they have great authority and virtual infallibility!.I suppose people are just viewing what the WT is saying the wrong way, they are in error when they assume they are handing their lives over to Gods chosen?.Just like they took what the WT said in 1975 the wrong way too! its all their fault for misinterpreting things!.Afterall the GB arn't infallible, they only have the "TRUTH" and how great that is, what a joy, happy happy joy joy!

CULT101 Friend!, thats the WT!

Edited by - Zep on 10 July 2000 21:45:43

7

Persuasion Techniques used by JW's

by waiting in

jw
friends

a study of the persuasion techniques used by jehovahs witnesses and the watchtower.. .

a research report submitted to tabor college, adelaide, by nathan charles beel as the directed study project component for the degree of bachelor of arts in christian counselling--- november, 1997.. -introduction.

-liftons criteria for thought reform.

Zep

You learnt your lesson there Solid eh?.I remember talking to a witness and i caught him on a little point in respect to JW beliefs, he didn't have an answer at the time but immediately tapped on the Watchtower magazine and said "this, is not perfect" and then went and tapped on the NWT and said "this is", being quite affirmative as he did it.The message i recieved from him, although he was technically saying the WT isn't perfect, was that although there were errors they are just minor things, Typo's and stuff, and that God reveals all in due time with "new light", and all these errors are just part of Gods plan etc, and everything is cool, and its the truth still!.Later, i referred to JW's as a "belief", he promptly pulled me up on that point and said "its not a belief, its the truth" and the conversation went back and forth like that for a little!.
Another time, i got him on a bigger question, and at first he was a little shocked because he saw a blatant contradiction, but then he just pulled himself together and said "theres an answer, i'll just go and ask, i'll get back to you", real confident he was on that point!.He came came back later with a bogus answer, i pointed out the error but he wouldn't believe me, he didn't get it, how could i be smarter than the guys who dispense the truth?

Edited by - Zep on 10 July 2000 7:21:43

52

JW prophets or not!!

by Zep in

well they use to claim they were...of course now they dont, at least not in so many words.their very name itself however, implies that they speak for jehovah.but if its the case as they claim, that they are not his prophets & do not neccessarily speak for him then they have no right to the name "jehovah witnesses"....furthermore, if they are not prophets then how can they claim that rev11:3-4 is referring to them....pg164 of revelation..grand climax book.here it says that "my 2 witnesses shall prophesy".....but since they are not prophets then how can they prophesy....how can god cause them to prophesy?.

its all games obviously...an attempt to avoid the label "false prophet" but in the process of doing so they just end up looking even more stupid!....

Zep

Friend:And what does that have to do with the price of rice in China? We are talking about how the Society represents itself, not how others view it/them. As you know views range from the quite sensible to the bizarre almost without regard for the subject. I am glad, though, that you realize the Society does not insist that their/its biblical interpretations are infallible.

==============================================
Of course they insist infallibility, those little bitty disclaimers they use mean nothing in the context of everything else they publish .You dont need to blatantly state your divinely inspired to have people take on that belief.People take the view that they are unquestionable and divine because the WT so blatantly imply it with all the empty Rhetoric they use proclaiming everything as "TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE" and all those nice pretty pictures etc ...WT literature is riddled with it....The average person is left in no doubt to claim, whether they decide to take the belief on or not.They hammer you over the head with "the Truth" and how great it is, leaving the individual to make the unambiguous conclusion that they are Almost Godly and infallible!.WT literature is a classic study in propaganda and deception.

What do you think of George Orwell friend BTW

P.S. Waiting, i enjoyed reading that cult link you put up...it was very interesting

P.S.S. Solid...You, Friend and one Desert Island....i can see real trouble mate he he!

Edited by - Zep on 10 July 2000 1:57:53

Edited by - Zep on 10 July 2000 7:31:58

52

JW prophets or not!!

by Zep in

well they use to claim they were...of course now they dont, at least not in so many words.their very name itself however, implies that they speak for jehovah.but if its the case as they claim, that they are not his prophets & do not neccessarily speak for him then they have no right to the name "jehovah witnesses"....furthermore, if they are not prophets then how can they claim that rev11:3-4 is referring to them....pg164 of revelation..grand climax book.here it says that "my 2 witnesses shall prophesy".....but since they are not prophets then how can they prophesy....how can god cause them to prophesy?.

its all games obviously...an attempt to avoid the label "false prophet" but in the process of doing so they just end up looking even more stupid!....

Zep

A ditz, geez...well thanks Waiting!.

11

Douglas Walsh Trial Testimony - Take II

by waiting in

i posted this yesterday, but friend's discussion is going on - and i really think this is a fascinating display on what obedience to the wtbts means to the gb or parts thereof.. obedience for the sake of unity to the organization is valued over anything else - including truth.

the douglas walsh triah took place in 1954. the vice president of the wtbts, fred franz, and the wtbts legal counsel, haydon covington, each gave testimony before the british court.. fred franz and haydon covington were testifying that some of its members were ordained ministers.. the man asking the questions is attorney for the ministry of labour and national service, part of which follows:.

q. is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters?

Zep

Oh yeah, Franz Christian Anderson, good stuff Solid...You know, George Orwell wrote a good book once.I wonder what Friend thought of it?...on second thoughts, i dont wanna know!!!!

52

JW prophets or not!!

by Zep in

well they use to claim they were...of course now they dont, at least not in so many words.their very name itself however, implies that they speak for jehovah.but if its the case as they claim, that they are not his prophets & do not neccessarily speak for him then they have no right to the name "jehovah witnesses"....furthermore, if they are not prophets then how can they claim that rev11:3-4 is referring to them....pg164 of revelation..grand climax book.here it says that "my 2 witnesses shall prophesy".....but since they are not prophets then how can they prophesy....how can god cause them to prophesy?.

its all games obviously...an attempt to avoid the label "false prophet" but in the process of doing so they just end up looking even more stupid!....

Zep

7:you sound as confused as i do!, theres just too many questions....!

OK Friend, I beleive that they claim 2) normally and 1) when convenient.

When convenient, they say this:

Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: "We have not the gift of prophecy." (January 1883, page 425) "Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit "does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." (May 15, 1947, page 157) The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic." (August 15, 1950, page 263) "The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" — February 15, 1981, page 19.

What do they say inspiration is???

Insight, pages 1202-4, "inspiration" is:
The quality or state of being moved by or produced under the direction of a spirit from a superhuman source. When that source is Jehovah, the result is a pronouncement or writings that are truly the word of God.... The men used to write the Scriptures therefore cooperated with the operation of Jehovah’s holy spirit. They were willing and submissive to God’s guidance...., eager to know God’s will and leading.... God directed them so that what they wrote coincided with and fulfilled his purpose. As spiritual men, their hearts and minds were attuned to God’s will, they ‘had the mind of Christ’ and so were not setting down mere human wisdom nor a "vision of their own heart," as false prophets did.

A prophecy, according to Vol 2. of Insight on the Scriptures, pages 690, 691, is:

An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come. As shown under PROPHET, prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages.... yet it forms an outstanding feature of Bible prophecy.... The Source of all true prophecy is Jehovah God.

A prophet, according to Vol 2. of Insight on the Scriptures, page 694, is

One through whom divine will and purpose are made known.

They've said this

Whom has God actually used as his prophet?.... Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them.... Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths.

and this:

As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a "faithful and discreet slave" class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days.

and this:

Who controls the organization, who directs it? Who is at the head? A man? A group of men? A clergy class? A pope? A hierarchy? A council? No, none of these. How is that possible? In any organization is it not necessary that there be a directing head or policy-making part that controls or guides the organization? Yes. Is the living God, Jehovah, the Director of the theocratic Christian organization? Yes!

Yes yes Yes..!

The holy spirit, which Jehovah prophesied that he would pour out in the last days, has not ceased to operate, for the remnant are still baptizing disciples of Christ in the name of that spirit.... The announced purpose behind God’s pouring out of his spirit upon all sorts of flesh was that the recipients thereof might prophesy. The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God’s spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching. Why argue about it?

Found this in recently in YOU CAN LIVE FOREVER IN PARADISE ON EARTH

"...But do they not rely on human wisdom in making decisions.No, being governed theocratically, they follow the example of the early governing body in Jerusalem, whose decisions were based on God's word and were made under the direction of holy spirit!

Theres too much, they just make no sense.Its all over at Osarsif if you wanna check it out!

http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm