Posts by Leolaia

22

The Holy Spirit

by Leolaia in

this was posted originally in the rodney dangerfield thread......

i don't really know much about the trinity other than what i was told as a jw but it does seem to me that the holy ghost is definitely running a distant third in the popularity contest.

when jws get into arguments with trinitarians, it's almost always about whether jesus is god, isn't it?

Narkissos.....About the role of angelology, also note the Gospel of the Hebrews, fr. 1 which claims that "the good Father summoned a mighty power in heaven, which was called Michael, and entrusted Christ to the care thereof. And the power came into the world and it was called Mary, and Christ was in her womb seven months". Thus some Jewish-Christians viewed the Virgin Mary as the incarnation (or earthly life) of the archangel Michael. Another interesting tidbit is the baptism of Jesus in the Gospels, which describe the descent of the "Spirit" (Mark 1:9-10), the "Spirit of God" (Matthew 3:13-17), the "Holy Spirit" (Luke 3:21-22; John 1:29-34) in the form of a dove. After the descent of the Spirit, a voice in heaven declares "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased". But what is being referred to -- the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, or Jesus? This ambiguity may have contributed also to an identification of the Son with the Spirit. The original account in Mark said that the Spirit "descended on him," Luke says the same thing, Matthew similarly says that the Spirit "alighted on him," John says that the Spirit descended and then "remained on him," but the Gospel of the Ebionites distinctively says that the Spirit "descended and entered into him". This specificity, based in an adoptionist view of Jesus becoming divine at his baptism, would suggest that the one being declared the Son was both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

There is some more stuff I forgot to mention from the synoptic gospels that identify Jesus with heavenly Wisdom. Matthew 8:20/Q 9:58 says: "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head". This saying recalls the notion of Wisdom having no place to dwell until God assigns her a new place (cf. Sirach 24:6-7; 1 Enoch 42:2). In Proverbs 8:17, Wisdom says that "those who seek me diligently find me" and Wisdom 6:12 claims that Wisdom "is found by those who seek her," and all this recalls Matthew 7:7/Q 11:9-13 where Jesus says "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find," and John 1:41, 45; 7:33-34; 8:21-22; 13:13; 20:15 repeatedly designates Jesus as the one people are seeking and finding. Even more striking is the following parallel:

Proverbs 1:24-28: "Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: 'How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you. But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you, when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.' "
Matthew 11:16-19/Q 7:31-2: "To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry'. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon. 'The Son of Man came eating and drinking,' and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But Wisdom is proved right by all her children".
John 7:33-34: "Still a short time I shall be with you, and I am going to the one who sent me. You will seek me and not find me, and where I am you cannot come".

Matthew again uses feminine imagery (e.g. "her children") to link Jesus with Wisdom. Aside from a several verbal parallels, there is also a commonality of theme; Wisdom is being rejected just as the Son of Man is being rejected. Compare also Matthew 12:42/Q 11:31: "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now someone greater than Solomon is here". Solomon's wisdom was in Jewish legend the ultimate in human wisdom; the one greater in wisdom than Solomon would naturally be Wisdom herself. And here are more allusions in the passage from Colossians:

Wisdom 1:6-7, 14; 7:26, 9:1: "Wisdom is a spirit, a friend to man....The spirit of the Lord indeed fills the whole world, and she holds all things together and knows every word that is said...For he created all things that they might exist, the created things of the world to have health in them....She is a reflection of the eternal light, untarnished mirror of God's active power, image of his goodness....God of our ancestors, Lord of mercy, who by your Word have made all things, and in your Wisdom have fitted man".
Colossians 1:15-18: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

I'm sure there are many other examples.

8

Can't keep eyes off crap on telly

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

right now it is early morning hours, the house is still, i'm in a half-trance and on the telly is the after-midnight "estate and new jewelry show" that is as hypnotic as heck.

most of it is sparkling jewelry spinning around on a rack to some really bad music that in my normal mind would be not worth a second of synapse resources, but in the sizzling sleep-deprived wide-eyed state it just draws me in.... i guess that's why they show this crap so late at night.

sometimes i dream while awake when i stay up all night, and this is the sort of thing that stirs the unconscious in some vague way...though it's a piece of shyte..... i know it's not just me.

Leolaia

hehehe....I don't know if I ever forked over money to those guys before, but you see now we got this wonderful thing called the Internet. Anytime I see an infomercial that advertises this wonderous new product, I just go over to the puter and type the name of the product into Google and usually add a word like "sucks" or "fraud" or something like that, and see what the real deal is. It's saved me money, at least a few times!

BTW, if you ever go to continental Europe, sometimes on late night TV they have these phone sex commercials. They are each about 5 seconds long, and they show a ton of them, and they repeat over and over, most a quite grotesque and some quite funny, but their brevity and repetition makes them quite hypnotic....

21

When did early church "fathers" first unequivocally write of Trinity?

by True North in

anyone know when the early church "fathers" first unequivocally wrote of the trinity?

how about when they first unequivocally wrote of the unitarian/arian viewpoint?

and when did one view versus the other first become an issue?

Leolaia

Regarding the Bible as we know it, I believe discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm a consistency in the writing that have been preserved to our day.

From The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation (Wise, Abegg, & Cook):

"The 'Dead Sea Bible' is the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found -- at least a thousand years older than the traditional Hebrew texts from the early medieval period that have been the basis of all our modern Bible translations. In many cases, the scrolls have supported the traditional text of the Bible, but in others, what they say in particular verses agrees with nontraditional versions like the Septuagint. At other times, the scrolls contain differences more profound than the readings of individual verses. They preserve 'editions' of entire biblical books that differ from the traditional text. For example, two forms of the book of Jeremiah have emerged from the caves, one agreeing with that usually printed and translated in modern Bibles, the other about 15 percent shorter and with the contents in a different order. Several versions of the book of Psalms have likewise come to light. These versions differ greatly from one another, in particular from Psalm 90 onward. Psalm 90-150 are arranged in different orders, and what is more, some of the manuscripts include additional, previously unknown psalms. The content and form of the book of Psalms was manifestly in flux in the period when the scrolls were written. In a similar vein, the discovery of the scrolls has uncovered the existence in this period of anthologies of biblical excerpts, of 'rewritten Bibles', and of lost sources used, perhaps, by the writers of the biblical books. The additions were intended to give a particular 'spin' to the biblical portions being interpreted. In short, the scrolls have proben that some of the Jews of Jesus' day knew and used more than one form of many biblical books, and it seems not to have disturbed them or driven them to resolve the differences. There was as yet no agreed upon 'canon' of the Bible" (pp. 11-12).

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

Leolaia

Yep, a good example is Tertullian's Trinity, where subordination of the Holy Spirit to the Son and the Son to the Father was rather explicit. A view that would have been quite heretical in the fourth and fifth century if it were advanced as a new concept at the time.

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

Leolaia

Herk said.....

You won't find it in the Bible, but the Trinity doctrine asserts there are THREE persons in ONE nature -- the DIVINE nature -- while the doctrine of Christ's double nature states that there are TWO natures in ONE person. In the body of the God-Man Jesus resided the mind of God and the mind of man -- TWO NATURES -- the one infinite and the other finite, yet making but one person. Got that, fols? Three persons in one nature and two natures in one person! We hope you can figure that out better than we can.

This is a blundering of the two natures doctrine. Remember that it developed subsequently to the Nicene creed, and words that were used interchangeably in the Nicene creed were later given more precise meanings in the two natures doctrine. According to the fourth century doctrine, there were three HYPOSTASES in one OUSIA, and two PHYSES in one HYPOSTASIS. You have blurred together PHYSIS and OUSIA as if they were the same thing. PHYSIS refers to a distinction of the human and the divine from the point of view of the HYPOSTASIS, a Person of the Trinity. The Father and the Holy Spirit have only one PHYSIS, because neither have been incarnated in the flesh. The Son has a hypostatic union of two PHYSES, as a result of the Incarnation and Resurrection. As the Post-Nicene fathers saw it, a denial of the two natures (i.e. two PHYSES) of Christ would deny both the Resurrection (as Jesus really was raised) and the Incarnation (as God the Son was really made flesh). The three HYPOSTASES, or Persons, of the Trinity however shared the same divine OUSIA, or essence, shared by them and by no one else. HOMOOUSIA refers to this unity in deity. The human PHYSIS of the Son is a property unified with deity within the Son, not shared between the three Persons as if it were an OUSIA or essence.

8

Can't keep eyes off crap on telly

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

right now it is early morning hours, the house is still, i'm in a half-trance and on the telly is the after-midnight "estate and new jewelry show" that is as hypnotic as heck.

most of it is sparkling jewelry spinning around on a rack to some really bad music that in my normal mind would be not worth a second of synapse resources, but in the sizzling sleep-deprived wide-eyed state it just draws me in.... i guess that's why they show this crap so late at night.

sometimes i dream while awake when i stay up all night, and this is the sort of thing that stirs the unconscious in some vague way...though it's a piece of shyte..... i know it's not just me.

Leolaia

But I would still have time to make April Fool's jokes?

And how gullible am I? I initially fell for both the ones on this list!

8

Can't keep eyes off crap on telly

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

right now it is early morning hours, the house is still, i'm in a half-trance and on the telly is the after-midnight "estate and new jewelry show" that is as hypnotic as heck.

most of it is sparkling jewelry spinning around on a rack to some really bad music that in my normal mind would be not worth a second of synapse resources, but in the sizzling sleep-deprived wide-eyed state it just draws me in.... i guess that's why they show this crap so late at night.

sometimes i dream while awake when i stay up all night, and this is the sort of thing that stirs the unconscious in some vague way...though it's a piece of shyte..... i know it's not just me.

Leolaia

I never tried meditation but maybe I might have a knack for it. If I suddenly get struck with the hiccups I can usually on command zone out and change my breathing and stare into nothingness and halt the hiccups immediately. But it only works if I catch it within the first one or two. Once it gets a rhythm going, my "meditation" cannot halt them though it usually lengthens the duration between hiccups.

8

Can't keep eyes off crap on telly

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

right now it is early morning hours, the house is still, i'm in a half-trance and on the telly is the after-midnight "estate and new jewelry show" that is as hypnotic as heck.

most of it is sparkling jewelry spinning around on a rack to some really bad music that in my normal mind would be not worth a second of synapse resources, but in the sizzling sleep-deprived wide-eyed state it just draws me in.... i guess that's why they show this crap so late at night.

sometimes i dream while awake when i stay up all night, and this is the sort of thing that stirs the unconscious in some vague way...though it's a piece of shyte..... i know it's not just me.

Leolaia

Well, rotting is fine with me as long as it doesn't smell.

25

Brainwashing

by Lady Lee in

brainwashing

from perfect victim by christine mcguire and carla norton.

in the book perfect victim a man kidnaps a grown woman and keeps her in his home as his slave.

Leolaia

Hmmm, looks like the JWs could use a ... er, a Sabbath?

8

Can't keep eyes off crap on telly

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

right now it is early morning hours, the house is still, i'm in a half-trance and on the telly is the after-midnight "estate and new jewelry show" that is as hypnotic as heck.

most of it is sparkling jewelry spinning around on a rack to some really bad music that in my normal mind would be not worth a second of synapse resources, but in the sizzling sleep-deprived wide-eyed state it just draws me in.... i guess that's why they show this crap so late at night.

sometimes i dream while awake when i stay up all night, and this is the sort of thing that stirs the unconscious in some vague way...though it's a piece of shyte..... i know it's not just me.

Leolaia

Right now it is early morning hours, the house is still, I'm in a half-trance and on the telly is the after-midnight "Estate and New Jewelry Show" that is as hypnotic as heck. Most of it is sparkling jewelry spinning around on a rack to some really bad music that in my normal mind would be not worth a second of synapse resources, but in the sizzling sleep-deprived wide-eyed state it just draws me in.... I guess that's why they show this crap so late at night. Sometimes I dream while awake when I stay up all night, and this is the sort of thing that stirs the unconscious in some vague way...THOUGH IT'S A PIECE OF SHYTE....

I know it's not just me. I've seen other ppl inexplicably drawn in to late-night infomercials. So is it subliminal or does the mind just rot during the middle of the night?