Posts by Leolaia

20

NASA has fixed a dead end for the world. 2012

by Mr Facts in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3bv_ybvqpi.

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NASA has fixed a dead end for the world. 2012

by Mr Facts in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3bv_ybvqpi.

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How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

Leolaia

Well, that's ridiculous of them (and of course "evangelicals" may hold supercessionist views on Judaism)....and a far cry of the kind of debate and discussion in scholarship of the Second Temple period. I attended the session on the book of Daniel at last year's SBL (with John Collins, Michael Segal, Stefan Beyerle, and others), and the discussion was very stimulating.

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

Leolaia

Sure, the leading scholars of Second Temple Judaism (such as George Nicklesburg, James VanderKam, Emmanuel Tov, Gabriele Boccaccini, Hanan Eshel, Esther Eshel, John J. Collins, Florentino García Martínez, Eibert Tigchelaar, Adela Yarbro Collins, Michael Knibb, Daniel Boyarin, Lawrence Schiffman, James Davila, Peter Flint, William Adler, Shemaryahu Talmon, Emile Puech, Paolo Sacchi, Marinus de Jonge, Esther Chazon, Rainer Albertz, Matthew Black, etc.) include both Jews and non-Jews. There are no fault lines between scholars that correspond to past or present participation in Judaism. I don't believe the religious background of the scholar has much bearing on the quality of one's scholarship as compared to one's knowledge of ancient languages, comprehension of the relevant religious literature, and a thorough understanding of the history and culture of the period. It should not be forgotten either that the Judaism of the Second Temple period was quite different from the Judaism of today; in like manner the Christianity of today differs considerably from the Christianity that existed in the fourth century AD.

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

Leolaia

Aww, thank you Randy! :) Meanwhile, here is something I just wrote....

The Gehenna mentioned in the gospels is an eschatological place of punishment; it is not necessarily identical to the actual geographical place with the same name (in a similar way, eschatological Jerusalem in Jewish and Christian tradition is otherworldly and not exactly identical with the present city). It is closely connected with concepts of eschatological judgment of the dead and eternal torture. Also, the claim that the valley of Hinnom was used as a garbage dump with an everburning fire lacks any archaeological and historical evidence, and is generally rejected by scholars (see, for instance, this post on the "myth of the burning garbage dump of Gehenna"). Jesus did not invent the concept of Gehenna; it was already part of the Judaism of his day. So to gain an understanding of what he meant in context, it is important to trace out the history of the idea. The earliest clear instance of this concept can be found in the third century BC in the Book of Watchers:

1 Enoch 27:1-3: "This cursed valley [near the holy mountain of God at the middle of the earth] is for those who are cursed forever. Here will be gathered all the cursed, who utter with their mouth proud words against the Lord and speak hard things against his glory. Here they will be gathered, and here will be their habitation at the last times, there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judgment in the presence of the righteous for all time".

This passage pictures the wicked as gathered together into Gehenna for eschatological judgment where they will be a spectacle to the rightous viewing them from the holy mountain in Jerusalem. It is exegetical of Isaiah 66:23-24 which describes the righteous as worshipping Yahweh at the holy mountain in Jerusalem where they will look at "the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched"; this probably also has the Valley of Hinnom in view, inasmuch as the punishment of the wicked would be visible to those atop Mount Zion. The Enochic passage builds on this by referring not to corpses but to the wicked having their habitation in the valley. It is also quoted in the NT in Jude 14-16 ("...all the hard words the ungodly have spoken against him....Their mouths utter proud things") which also quotes from 1 Enoch 1:9 (v. 6 and v. 12-13 also utilize material from 1 Enoch, and v. 7 refers to the "punishment of eternal fire", a notion consistent with such passages as 100:4-9, 103:7-8). Another early version of the idea appears in the Animal Apocalypse (early second century BC):

1 Enoch 90:20, 24-27: "And I saw until a throne was constructed in the pleasant land and the Lord of the sheep sat upon it, and he took all the sealed books and opened those books before the Lord of the sheep....And judgment was exacted first on the stars, and they were judged and found to be sinners. And they went to the place of judgment, and they threw them into an abyss, and it was full of fire, and it was burning and was full of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found to be sinners, and they were thrown into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time that an abyss like it was opened in the middle of the earth, which was full of fire. And they brought those blinded sheep, and they were all judged and found to be sinners. And they were thrown into that fiery abyss, and they burned. And that abyss was to the south of that house (i.e. the Temple). And I saw those sheep burning and their bones burning".

This makes explicit what was implicit in the older passage: that the wicked are punished with fire in the valley. That the reference is to Gehenna is clear from the abyss' location to the south of the Temple. It was also stated clearly in pre-Christian sources that punishment by fire is both eternal and experienced consciously by the wicked. Here are some references from the middle to the end of the second century BC (note that these do not necessarily localize the punishment in Gehenna per se):

1 Enoch 100:9, 103:7-8: "Woe to you sinners who afflict the righteous, on the day of strong anguish (en hèmera anagkès stereas) he will burn them in fire (phlexète autous en puri)....Know that down to Sheol ("Hades" in the Greek translation) they will lead your souls and there they will be wretched in great distress (ekei esountai en anagkè megalè), and in darkness (skotei) and in a snare and in a flaming fire (en phlogi kaiomenè). Into great judgment your souls will enter, and the great judgment will be for all the generations of eternity (tais geneais tou aiònos)" (written in the mid-second century BC).
1QS 4:11-14: "The judgment of all who walk in such [wicked] ways will bring an abundance of afflictions (lrwb ngw`ym) at the hands of the angels of perdition, for eternal damnation (lshcht 'wlmym) in the wrath of God's furious vengeance, with terror and shame without end (lz`wtntsch wchrpt), with a humiliating destruction by fire in the darkness (`m klmt klh b-'sh mchshkym). For all eternity (qtsyhm), generation by generation (ldwrwtm), they will spend in bitter weeping (b-'bl) and harsh evils (ygwn wr`t) in dark abysses (b-hwywt chwshd) without any remnant nor rescue from destruction" (the Dead Sea Scrolls Community Rule was written in the late second century BC).
Judith 16:17: "Woe to the nations that rise against my people, the Lord Almighty will requite them; in the day of judgment (hèmerai kriseòs) he will punish (ekdikèsei) them, he will send fire (dounai pur) and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever (klausontai en aisthèsei heòs aiònos)" (written in the late second century BC).

That the punishment involved conscious torment is apparent from such sources as 4 Maccabees (written in the first century AD), which compares the temporary torture Antiochus Epiphanes would give to the faithful martyrs with eternal torment: "Put us to the test then, tyrant, and if you take our lives for the sake of our religion, do not think you can harm us with your torments (basanizòn). By our suffering and endurance (kakopatheias kai hupomonès) we shall obtain the prize of virtue and shall be with God, on whose account we suffer. But you, because of our foul murder, will suffer (karterèseis) at the hand of divine justice the everlasting (aiònion) torment (basanon) by fire (dia puros)....Justice will hold you in store for an intense and everlasting fire (puknoterò kai aioniò puri) and for torments (basanois) which will never let you go for all time (eis holon ton aiòna)" (9:7-9, 12:11-12).

All of this is background to the references to Gehenna in the gospels and eternal punishment elsewhere in the NT. Not that such sources are supposed to have the status of scripture (a common objection to the citation of extrabiblical sources), but they show that the ideas and terms used in the NT have a pedigree in earlier Judaism and they thus shed light on what the same motifs signify in the books selected for inclusion in the Bible (many of the new ideas appearing in the NT which did not exist in the OT were first expressed in intertestamental literature). Jesus' reference to Gehenna as a place of eschatological punishment by fire builds on similar apocalyptic beliefs about the "accursed valley" south of the Temple where at the end of the age the wicked would be punished. These references contain the same themes and motifs found in these earlier references to eschatological judgment: (1) punishment by fire, (2) darkness, (3) torment and distress, including weeping and gnashing of teeth, and (4) the eternal duration of such punishment.

Matthew 8:11-12,13:41-43, 18:8-9, 25:31-32, 41, 46: "Many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the outer darkness (eis to skotos to exòteron), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (ho klauthmos kai ho brugmos tòn odontòn).... The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace (kaminon tou puros), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (ho klauthmos kai ho brugmos tòn odontòn). Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father... It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire (to pur to aiònion)... It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of Gehenna (eis tèn geennan tou puros).... When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats ... Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire (eis to pur to aiònion) prepared for the devil and his angels' ... Then they will go away to eternal punishment (eis kolasin aiònion), but the righteous to eternal life" (written in the late first century AD).

This material is not radically different from the preceding. It posits eternal punishment as following resurrection and eschatological judgment (even having the same motifs from the Animal Apocalypse of the judge sitting down on his throne with everyone gathered before him), with the same features of darkness and weeping and fire, with also a localization of punishment at Gehenna, and the duration of the punishment being eternal as well. This is essentially the same picture found in earlier Judaism (particularly in Essene sources), and it is found in Revelation as well:

Revelation 14:9-11: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented (basanisthèsetai) with fire and sulphur (en puri kai theiò) in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment (ho kapnos tou basanismou autòn) rises forever and ever (eis aiònas aiònòn). There is no rest day or night (ouk ekhousin anapausin hèmeras kai nuktos) for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.

And in ch. 20 we have a judgment scene very much like that in the Animal Apocalypse and Matthew 25, where the resurrected dead stand before the throne, books are opened, and the wicked are sent to the lake of fire (limnèn tou puros). Around the same time Revelation was written, the Jewish apocalypse of 4 Ezra (c. AD 100) depicted a similar scenario:

4 Ezra 7:32-38: "And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn, but judgment alone shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong. And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep. Then the pit of torment (lacus tormenti) shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of Gehenna (clibanus Gehennae) shall appear, and opposite it the Paradise of delight. Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, 'Look now, and understand whom you have denied ... Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments (ignis et tormenta)".

And Christian references to eternal punishment in the second century AD do not represent a new notion that was only adopted then, but rather continue views similar to what was expressed earlier in the NT and in pre-Christian Jewish sources:

Apocalypse of Peter 21-23: "And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment (topos kolaseòs), and they were punished (kolazomenoi) and the angels that punished them(hoi kolazontes aggeloi) had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming (pur phlegomenon) and tormenting them (kolazon autous). And there was a great lake full of flaming mire (limnè hèn megalè peplèròmenè), wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels set over to torment them (basanistai)". (written in the early second century AD and accepted as canonical by the Muratorian Fragment, cf. the references to the "angels of perdition" in 1QS and the "lake of fire" in Revelation).
Justin Martyr, Apologia 1.19, 45, 2.2: "Gehenna is a place (he Geenna esti topos) where those are to be punished (kolazesthai) who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass....If you also read these words in a hostile spirit, you can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by fire (kolasin dia puros aiònian)....A certain woman lived with an intemperate husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire (en aiòniò puri kolasin) inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason" (written in c. AD 155).
Justin Martyr, Dialogue 117.3: "He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send away others to the eternal punishment of fire (eis kolasin aiònion puros)" (written in c. AD 155).
Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:2-3, 11:2: "Even when the martyrs were so torn by whips that the internal structure of their flesh was visible as far as the inner veins and arteries, they endured so patiently that even the bystanders had pity and wept. But they themselves reached such a level of bravery that not one of them uttered a cry or a groan, thus showing to us all that at the very hour when they were being tortured (basanizomenoi) the martyrs of Christ were absent from the flesh, or that the Lord was conversing with them. And turning their thoughts to the grace of Christ they despised the tortures (basanòn) of this world, purchasing at the cost of one hour an exemption from eternal punishment (tèn aiònion kolasin)....But Polycarp said: 'You threaten with a fire that burns only briefly and after just a little while is extinguished, for you are ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and eternal punishment (to tès mellouses kriseòs kai aiòniou kolaseòs pur), which is reserved for the ungodly' " (written c. AD 155-160).
Epistle From the Church of Lyons and Vienna, 1.25: "Among those who had denied [Christ] was a woman of the name of Biblias. The devil, thinking that he had already swallowed her, and wishing to damn her still more by making her accuse falsely, brought her forth to punishment (kolasin), and employed force to constrain her, already feeble and spiritless, to utter accusations of atheism against us. But she, in the midst of the tortures, came again to a sound state of mind, and awoke as it were out of a deep sleep; for the temporary suffering (tès proskairou timorias) reminded her of the eternal punishment in Gehenna (tèn aiònion en Geennèi kolasin), and she contradicted the accusers of Christians, saying, 'How can children be eaten by those who do not think it lawful to partake of the blood of even brute beasts?' And after this she confessed herself a Christian" (written in c. AD 177-178).

These sources also show that kolasin did not mean "lopping off" in its eschatological usage (and indeed in its usual usage) but had a meaning of "punishment" with connotations of torture. This is the same sense in Matthew; the parallels to the narrative in ch. 25 (where the wicked depart into "eternal punishment"|"the eternal fire") elsewhere in the gospel posit the wicked as being thrown into "the outer darkness"|"the fire of Gehenna"|"the fiery furance" where they weep and gnash their teeth (i.e. the experience is painful and humiliating).

27

What would you say to a po' gal dat loves de Lawd and only has 22¢ ?

by baltar447 in

jw
friends

.

more goodies: .

http://wcl.wikia.com/wiki/awake!,_consolation,_the_golden_age.

Leolaia

That was scanned by me from an actual issue....

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/115448/1/Golden-Age-Goodies

I love the part that says that Rutherford couldn't write these things unless he were used of God.

30

A Kinder, Gentler Jehovah Emerges at the 2012 DC?

by Socrateswannabe in

jw
friends

having attended this summer's district convention, i'm confused.

has a kinder, gentler jehovah emerged?.

acquiring an obedient heart-is it possible?

Leolaia

yadda yadda....My comment about how the situations are unequal is not based on scripture or scriptural interpretation, and that inequality exists whether the Bible recognizes it or not. There are plenty of other social inequalities that the Bible does not challenge which we today find problematic. My comment is more about how the Society ignores that the situations are unequal when giving advice to gay and lesbian JWs, while caricaturing what homosexuality is (simply a matter of "sexual urges").

The Bible does not address homosexuality as a orientation (a rather modern notion); it only comments on people who engage in certain sexual acts.

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

Leolaia

I do not believe in any religious concept as necessarily having ontological reality; I do not hold any religious beliefs per se. I do hold beliefs however on what is taught in the Bible, or rather, what range of early Jewish and Christian ideas find expression in the books that were collated into the volume we call the Bible.

Hellfire. There were two beliefs of post-mortem punishment in the Second Temple period: (1) eternal punishment (usually via fire) of the wicked dead soon after death, (2) eternal punishment (usually via fire) of the wicked dead after Judgment Day and after the resurrection. The second idea assumes an intermediate state between death and resurrection, and this punishment is experienced bodily. Some Jews however reserved the resurrection only for the righteous (rather than extending it to all the dead), and some believed in the immortality of the soul instead of resurrection; for these (1) was the more typical belief. Some however held both ideas .... a wicked person waiting for resurrection is still punished in the intermediate state. The NT draws on a range of these ideas. The references to Gehenna pertain to (2). The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has ideas more typical of (1). The Society's arguments against the biblical status of Hell are imo rather weak. When you place the biblical references into the broader literary context of the Second Temple period, they fit very well with other similar beliefs expressed in Jewish sources. The Christians did not "later" borrow the idea of Hell from pagan influence; it was already part of the Judaism that Christianity developed from. This idea may well have pagan origins (specifically Zoroastrian), but one could similarly argue that other biblical eschatological ideas like paradise, the resurrection, Judgment Day, the millennium, and an end-times Savior also have similar origins.

Immortality of the Soul. Second Temple Judaism was subject to Hellenistic influences and the idea that the soul is inherently immortal was a common concept in the first century. It was not opposed to the belief in resurrection and often both ideas were accommodated to each other, e.g. resurrection involves the reuniting of the soul with a body. The NT does not have the strictly Platonic concept but it does show influence from Platonic and Pythagorean ideas, particularly the anthropology that considers the body as the "tent" or "clothing" for the soul, that one could be "out of the body", and that the person in the post-mortem intermediate state is "naked". In one place, the NT even uses the term psukhè "soul" to refer to a person in the post-mortem intermediate state (usually it avoids the use of this term). All of this conforms well with Jewish ideas of the period. Also, the Society confuses the more narrow belief in immortality of the soul with the idea of any conscious post-mortem experience of a dead person, or even continued existence in a post-mortem state (an afterlife). Even the pre-exilic Israelites believed in the latter, as the OT shows. The favorite proof-text the Society cites to deny that the Bible teaches a post-mortem existence also denies a future resurrection; it is rather close to the views of the Sadducees who denied both post-mortem existence and the resurrection. The NT has a whole has a very different eschatological perspective; the Bible is heterogenous and presents different perspectives and views. And the pagan influence of the Greek concept of immortality is not strictly posterior to the composition of the books of the NT but was part of the Judaism that Christianty developed from.

The Trinity. This is a constructed doctrine, or rather a range of doctrines, that developed particularly from the mid-second century onward in interaction with other (hetereodox) developing theologies. It is harmonistic in attempting to combine different biblical statements about God and the relationship with God and Christ (specifically maintaining the distinction between the Father and Son while having both be God while affirming monotheism), and as a hemeneutical product it is not found in the Bible. This applies equally to Arianism (which also reflects Greek philosophical influence just as much as trinitarianism), or the modern JW doctrine (which regards Jesus as Michael the Archangel), which was equally constructed through biblical interpretation. Many of the ideas that contributed to trinitarian thought go back to early Christianity and can be found in the NT, including high christology (the Deity of Christ), personhood or personification of the Holy Spirit, and triadic formulae. Trinitarian theology was not something foreign imposed on Christianity at a later date but represents a smooth trajectory of intellectual development of ideas going back to the first century AD. And so the Society has misrepresented the views of the early church fathers to exaggerate the gulf between early Christianity and later trinitarian Christianity, when in reality there is no gulf.

Anyway, those are my beliefs about what is "taught" in the Bible.

32

Were 'alien residents' Second Class Israelites?

by The Searcher in

the accepted teaching amongst most (i'm addressing fellow witnesses here) is that 'alien residents' were merely "beneficiaries" of the law covenant, but were not equal with natural israelites.

the insight book has this to say; "the law covenant between jehovah and the nation of natural israel was made in the third month after their leaving egypt, in 1513 b.c.e.

(ex 19:1) it was a national covenant.

Leolaia

Heh, this is mildly amusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-nuej3WtXU

49

Update on Alan Feuerbacher's heart attack that he had last Sunday

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

alan'swife, julie, talked to the cardiologist this morning.

the news about alan's heart is good.

he described the heart attack as mild and said that although there is damage to the lower portion of his heart, the pumping action probably won't be affected much.

Leolaia

I am really glad to hear that the prognosis is good. And I hope that the diabetes was caught early, and perhaps the silver lining is that this brought attention to a condition he didn't know he had.

I got to meet him twice and I thoroughly enjoyed talking with him and hearing his story.