Posts by Leolaia

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

Thanks mods for removing the posts on the previous page!!

For those commenting, I again request NO SPOILERS!! I would like to present the material on Moyle as a unfolding story. But please discuss what has already been posted. :)

frankiespeakin....That is interesting, I never really gave much thought to what Rutherford's childhood experiences could have been. I bet they did shape his character to a great deal. Certainly it was his prison experience of 1918-1919 that greatly fueled his vendetta against the Catholic Church.

Rutherford's over-the-top reaction to the private letter sent to him by Olin Moyle shows he was a man with a huge ego and feeling of self-worth. His control of the Society was maintained by demonizing what he saw as his 'opponents' and gathering around himself various yes-men. He couldn't cope with the criticism Moyle brought and seemed to equate it with an attack against "God's Organization"!

Exactly! Nicely worded.

VM44....Okay the problem with p. 2 is that three of my posts have script that originated from Word. Maybe those posts could be fixed, but I'm not sure. Meanwhile, I would suggest to not use such a crappy browser. Firefox, Safari, Chrome load the page without problems.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Leolaia

To respond to a point page on p. 4 of this thread....

Chapter 7 has three parts, a vision in v. 1-3, an audition in v. 4-8, and a vision in v. 9-17. The first vision concerns a sealing that takes place on earth, the audition in v. 4-8 does not localize the source of the voice but it is the voice of God then it is emanating from heaven. The third vision, clearly set off from the preceding audition by meta tauta "after these things", describes an assemblage in heaven, as the contextual motifs show ("before the throne", "in the temple", "white robes", their martyred status, etc.); these motifs all better support a reading that locates the crowd in heaven than on earth. The objection that the author should have explicitly shifted the scene at the start of v. 9 (e.g. "After this I looked, and behold in heaven there was a great multitude in front of me"), but the scene does shift in that verse with the statement that the crowd are "before the throne" and v. 15 repeats this and adds "in the temple", by which the reader should understand that the vision is a heavenly one. There is a similar shift in ch. 6: the seals are opened in heaven, the results of each unsealing have results on the earth in v. 2-8 (e.g. " given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other" in v. 4, "given power over a fourth of the earth" in v. 8, etc.), and the next vision report shifts the scene to the heavenly temple: " I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain" (v. 6). That shifts the scene to heaven, just as we have in the next chapter: " a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, was standing before the throne and before the Lamb". Then the next vision report in v. 12 shifts to describe events happening both in heaven and earth. There are multiple settings in ch. 6, just as there are multiple settings in ch. 7. The first verses of ch. 7 clearly concern the earth, the latter verses in the chapter concern heaven. "After these things I looked and behold" in v. 9 marks pretty clearly the start of a new vision that could certainly involve a new scene. The vision in v. 1-3, in fact, is set apart from the preceding as a new vision with "after this I saw". In ch. 15, " after this I looked, and I saw" marks a shift from the throng at the fiery sea of glass to the interior of the temple (v. 5). And at the start of ch. 18 "after this I saw" (v. 1) marks the shift from the vision of the harlot of Babylon (ch. 17) to the lament of the fall of Babylon (ch. 18); two distinct but related visions.

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

It loads well for me....what is your brower?

I am going to hold off posting more until a mod removes the images....

bats....If I had done this thread in one post it would have been so long that no one would have wanted to read that post. Plus I was hoping for a bit of discussion as events progressed.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Leolaia

The reference to the "great crowd" in ch. 7 is just as much in heaven as the "great crowd" in ch. 19, regardless of whether they are identical. They are "before the throne of God (enòpion tou thronou theou) and serve him day and night in his temple (en tò naò autou)" (7:15). Those who are also "before the throne" are the seven spirits in 1:4, the seven lamps in 4:5, the sea of glass in 4:6, "all the angels" a few verses earlier in 7:11, the golden altar in 8:3, 9:13; these are heavenly objects or beings. The term enòpion also in this context implies proximity, "in front of"; cf. "The twenty-four elders will fall down before (enòpion) him who sits on the throne ... and will cast their crowns before the throne (enòpion tou thronou)" (4:10), the twenty-four elders are heavenly, seated on their own thrones surrounding God's throne (4:4, 11:16), and this involves a casting forth of crowns towards the throne. The "temple" (naos) is also explicitly designated as "in heaven" in 11:19, 14:17, 15:5.

The great crowd has "come out of the great tribulation". This means one thing: they are dead; they were martyred during the tribulation. This innumerable crowd completes the number of martyrs mentioned in 6:9-11: "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God....Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed". The reference to the incomplete number of martyred saints foreshadows the innumerable great crowd coming out of the great tribulation in the next chapter. These are the dead in heaven (as the "altar" is in the heavenly temple), awaiting the completion of the tribulation. Notice too that they are given a white robe (an angelic garment), just as those of the "great crowd" in heaven in 7:13. These members of the "great crowd" have white robes because they have "made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7:14). This again means that they are martyred, for the martyrs in 12:11 have overcome the Devil "by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives when faced with death". Notice the past tense. They are already dead, like the martyred saints in ch. 6 and 7.

36

Jason BeDuhn regarding Revelation 7 and the Great Crowd

by Sauerkraut in

a while ago i sent an e-mail to jason beduhn, that the society is quite fond of.

they like to quote him in publications.

so when i started researching the great crowd and the accuracy of the earthly hope doctrine i thought i might write him and ask him what the exact meaning of "before the throne" (revelation 7:9) and "temple" (7:15) is.

Leolaia

Quite interesting. Thanks for taking the initiative.

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

Olin's wife, Phoebe, tells her story to a friend:

#24
Phoebe Moyle to Sister Hattie Dilly, 16 Sept. 1939: "Doubtless by this time you have seen the statement in the Sept. 1, Watch Tower, accusing Olin of being unfaithful. To those of our friends, we wish to state that neither of us were ever unfaithful to Jehovah, his organization, or any of the brethren. Last May, we decided we did not wish to continue living at Bethel, because of conditions there, which we could not approve. We decided that by Sept. 1, of this year Olin would have the many cases in various courts of appeal, so arranged that we could handle them from an office in Milwaukee. One of the rules of the organization is that anyone leaving Bethel should give a 30 days' notice. This we did 35 days before Sept. 1. Olin tabulated all the pending cases giving statements of the progress of each & offered to handle them just as he had been doing. He also wrote a personal letter to Bro. R. stating our reasons for leaving. This angered the Judge, who called a meeting of the board of directors, after speaking at length. J. F. R. called Olin one of the evil servant, etc. Since we left stories have circulated that Olin is a Jesuit that he advised parents to send their children to military schools, that he was unfaithful, all statements are untrue. At the dinner table, the letter Olin wrote was read to the family & J. F. R. ordered Olin to leave Bethel at once. Later he included Peter & myself. It was a terrible hot day. We had to pack our personal effects, find a moving van & get out before night. This we did. We had our trailer parked on Bro Van Ness's farm, about 30 miles from Brooklyn, in New Jersey....

Then we came to Milwaukee, where Olin will engage in private practice again. Bro. H. Fink, a broker of vegetables, is giving us the use of his office free and Bro. and Sr. Newman are giving us a home free until May or June. When we went to Bethel over 4 years ago we sold our home & business & all belongings. We could not keep a car, pay for garage & upkeep on $10 per month. Each of us drew $10 each month of our savings for the four years besides using money as we needed it. Never have any of us been unfaithful. The Milwaukee company have welcomed us, we have our part in the house to house work, model studies, back calls, etc. and in spite of all stories to the contrary we desire to continue serving".

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

Zone servant Harvey Fink then wrote to Rutherford to keep him abreast of the situation:

#23:
Zone servant Harvey H. Fink to J. F. Rutherford, 12 Sept. 1939: "Bro. Moyle, Sr. Moyle, and Peter have been regularly attending all of the meetings in the Milwaukee Company and have been engaging wholeheartedly in the kingdom service. Up to the time the Statement came out in the recent Tower about his alleged unfaithfulness, the friends here were all under the impression that he had left voluntarily to resume practice having about life East rather strenuous. I, of course, knew that he had written a letter to you, and having known him for a good many years, asked to see a copy of it. Until recently, he refused to show me a copy, claiming that the matter was a personal matter between you and him and he felt that the less said about the whole matter the better, is it might possibly disturb some and jeopardize the Kingdom interests. Since that time, of course, I have seen the letter. Naturally I am not in a position to pass upon the truth or falsity of any of the statements contained therein and neither am I in any sense of the word interested.

However, that statement in the Tower provoked quite a bit of speculation and gossip on the part of the friends here and at the very next service meeting I as zone servant publically demanded to know of Bro. Moyle whether his association with this company meant that he was wholeheartedly in favor of the work of the Society and intended to cooperate with the company individually in all matters in which case we would be only glad to have him do so, otherwise we wanted an explanation of the statement found in the Tower. We were all gratified to hear him publically express his full and complete conviction that the Society was the Lord's instrument in the earth today, that he was fully and completely in harmony of its work, that he agreed the Tower articles were the meat in due season for the Lord's people and assured us of his and the Moyle family's full determination to engaged in the witness work....I assured him on behalf of the company as well as myself that if these were his sentiments we would be only too glad to have him in our midst and that even if he had been wrong, which of course I cannot say dogmatically, the Lord as well as we as a company would be only too glad to let bygones be bygones....

Naturally some friends are somewhat puzzled over the statement found in the Tower and the apparent inconsistency with it in Bro. Moyle's actions. I however think it is to his credit to take the attitude that he has rather than to engage in a campaign of hate over what may only be, in the final analysis, a misunderstanding. Even if, however, he was dead wrong in what occurred in Brooklyn, I think it becomes our Christian duty to lend a helping hand to one who might have made a mistake but is still willing to serve the Lord, humbly and enthusiastically. My grand dad used to say that the more one stirs a pail of mature, the worse it stinks. Under the circumstances, I think the less said about this whole thing the better, but I felt that you might be interested to know that Bro. Moyle is not out here raising a lot of HELL and poisoning the minds of the friends against the Society, its work, and even you in particular".

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

Upset at what the Watchtower published about her brother, Laura Rouse mailed a copy of the resignation letter to three nearby companies:

#22
Laura (Olin's sister) and Leland Rouse to the Companies of Waupun, Columbus, and Horicon, 8 Sept. 1939: "We were home to Lake Mills last Tuesday and got our latest Towers. The little paragraph called "FOR YOUR INFORMATION" was the first thing that hit me — and right square in the face! Perhaps you got a shock too????? Of course, I knew that my brother had been 'pitched out', as he expressed it, and that the reason for it was a letter he had written to Bro. R. — about the conditions there. I knew that he had resigned, too, and was expecting to come to Wisconsin and again practice law after Sept. 1st. He came two weeks earlier on account of the hasty action of the executives there at Bethel. Well: For your further information, and because I believe you are fair-minded enuff to get both sides of any question before passing judgment, I am sending you a copy of the letter my brother wrote to the judge, and including some of the FACTS that followed it. He says he sees no harm in letting the FACTS be known, and has given me permission to use the letter for that purpose. We should FACE THE FACTS, should we not? You may copy the letter if you wish. If you do not care for the letter after reading it, you may return it to me. I am sending a copy to each of the four companys that were formed in our former territory. Will you, the company servant, please see that each member has an opportunity to read this letter carefully? And if you wish to pass on this information to others in the truth, that is your privilege. It is a very sorrowful 'DAVID' who has written this letter to our dear 'JONATHAN' friends".

When Moyle gave a copy of the letter to his sister, "she asked me if I had any objections to sending the letter to two families with whom we were acquainted, a family by the name of Early and another by the name of Rounds. They were pioneers. I told her I had no objection to sending it to them" (p. 245). She ended up sending the letter to three companies and asked if the publishers in each company could read it. Meanwhile Moyle was overwhelmed with requests from people to see the resignation letter, thanks to the Watchtower article: "People wrote in to me after the September 1st 'Watch Tower' came out, many here and there, asking for my side of the story. I had those names and addresses. I sent copies to them" (p. 241).

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

Indeed. Sorry about that. It was a lot of typing.

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

Gossip started to fly in Milwaukee Company, provoked by the statement in the Watchtower, and zone servant Fink asked Moyle to make a public statement about his loyalty to the Society. This is Moyle's statement.

#21Olin R. Moyle to JWs of Milwaukee Company, 7 Sept. 1939: "The Sept. 1st Watch Tower contains a notice stating that my connections with the Society were severed because of unfaithfulness to the Kingdom interests and to the brethren. This statement does not conform to the facts. The facts are as follows: On July 21st I gave Brother Rutherford thirty days notice in writing of my resignation as the Society's counselor. This resignation was given as an emphatic protest against certain conditions which had arisen at Bethel. I had no personal grievance against the Society's President but I protested strongly against some of his actions, such as ill treatment of the Bethel family; scolding and lambasting them at the dinner table; discriminating against them in the matter of comfort and conveniences; undue exaltation to the use of alcohol, and the use of filthy and vulgar language. On August 8th, immediately following vacation prompt action was taken concerning the matter. The Board of Directors was called together and my letter of resignation read to the members thereof. The Board recommended that my connections with the Society be severed immediately. I was branded as a religionist, a member of the evil servant, and in all seriousness it was claimed that I was a Jesuit, presumably in disguise. The Moyle family was thereupon given half a day to pack up its goods and get out. Since leaving Bethel other stories have mysteriously come to the front, to the effect that I betrayed the brethren in the courts and that I instructed brethren in Massachusetts that it would be all right to send their children to a military school. These claims and stories are false and apparently made with an ulterior purpose.

I have never been disloyal to the Society or the interests of the Kingdom. My position was stated in a letter to Brother Rutherford on August 21st from which the following is quoted: '...I am loyally supporting the Society in this area and expect to continue to do so regardless of the attitude of the Society toward us. Neither am I waging any personal warfare against you. I have never questioned or denied that the Lord is using you as his earthly director of Kingdom work'....I am now a part of the Milwaukee Company of Jehovah's witnesses and engaging wholeheartedly with it in the advancement of the Kingdom interests. This statement is made to personal friends so that they may have a clear understanding of the matter".

When Moyle arrived to Wisconsin in August, he was generally quiet about what happened at Bethel but some people had suspicions about why he left Bethel. C. Hilton Ellison testified during the trial: "There were many questions that were asked by different ones as to why he was in Wisconsin when there was so much legal work to be done in Brooklyn and he belonged there to take care of the Society's legal work". Then when the September 1st Watchtower came out, those questions intensified. Zone servant Harvey Fink said during the trial that after the magazine was received, "quite a few [brethren] came to me and asked me what that was all about". With people speculating as to the nature of Moyle's "unfaithfulness", Fink asked him to make a statement on where he stood in the next meeting, which he read. This is Ellison's account of the meeting: "I was presiding at that meeting as company servant, and during the meeting Mr. Fink took over part of it and said that because of the fact that he had received so many inquiries as to why Mr. Moyle was in Milwaukee, he would give him a chance to tell the Milwaukee friends why he left Brooklyn." After the meeting, some wondered how Moyle really "was in perfect harmony with the Society" if he left his work and moved to Milwaukee to resume secular work. Ellison says that the brethren in the company "took sides, some with Moyle and some with the Society".