Posts by Leolaia

20

The EGIBI Family Records WIPESOUT Watchtower 607 B.C.E. Date for GOOD!

by TheSnarkyApologist in

jw
friends

this is information gained from carl olof jonsson's book entitled "the gentile times reconsidered".

it's an extremely valuable piece of proof that utterly demolishes the watchtower claim of "extra kings" and "extra time" being inserted into the discussion!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53_076v7a5s.

Leolaia

Sure. Good luck with things.

36

Jason BeDuhn regarding Revelation 7 and the Great Crowd

by Sauerkraut in

a while ago i sent an e-mail to jason beduhn, that the society is quite fond of.

they like to quote him in publications.

so when i started researching the great crowd and the accuracy of the earthly hope doctrine i thought i might write him and ask him what the exact meaning of "before the throne" (revelation 7:9) and "temple" (7:15) is.

Leolaia

Oh I don't disagree with you; bias is inevitable in translation. And I do agree with BeDuhn's main point about the relationship between literalness and bias; certainly bias piles on more and more when you move more into the direction of a paraphrase. My point is that assessing the nature of the bias gets to be subjective when you are comparing it against your own interpretation of what the text means. (And in a number of cases, I felt that the discussion wasn't really sufficient.) Also I feel bias is more about partiality than it is about accuracy. The former can be established much more objectively than the latter.

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

Then the 15 November 1939 issue of the Watchtower published yet another piece about Moyle, this time a study article:

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

jgnat....Indeed. There was no schism or controversy in that congregation until the Society made it into one. The Moyles were welcomed into the congregation enthusiastically, and although there were questions about why he retired from Bethel, it wasn't a big deal. It was not until the Watchtower started publishing attacks on his character that Moyle felt he needed to broadcast the letter in order to defend himself and tell his side of the story; he had been pretty quiet about what happened at Bethel up to then.

100

2012 annual meeting notes

by lostinthought in

jw
friends

sorry for the wait guys.... .

part one.

moorse had the opening comments talked about historic annual meetings.. .

Leolaia

They could probably say prior to 1971 it was the WTS Board of Directors, which in fact used to be called the "governing body". Rutherford was "a part" of the Board of Directors in 1919. The office of the president is where the power actually lay, so such a spin would assimilate and subordinate the president to the Board itself.

30

The Governing Body has to Become the Faithful & Discreet Slave

by Mickey mouse in

the growing ranks of the anointed are a threat to their power.

today's watchtower made it clear that jehovah uses the governing body, no mention of the faithful & discreet slave.. i think they need new light on this in the next year or two..

Leolaia

Do "belongings" that are not domestics need to be fed? What in the household would the great crowd correspond to? Inanimate things? Oh!!!! The great crowd are..... pets????

100

2012 annual meeting notes

by lostinthought in

jw
friends

sorry for the wait guys.... .

part one.

moorse had the opening comments talked about historic annual meetings.. .

Leolaia

Master: "I need to go away for a month on business. Household slaves, you are responsible for your meals, k?" Slaves: Gotcha, master. (Next day). A certain ambitious slave: "Yo, fellow slaves, getcha supper! I've provided you all a feast!" Slaves: I thought we were responsible for our own meals?" Ambitious slave: "Heck, no. Master privately told me that all meals must come from a single source. And since I'm in charge of the kitchen, that means I'm the one in charge." (Next day). Ambitious slave: "Yo, slaves, dinner time. Oh btw, thank you for doing your part in getting groceries for supper." Other slaves: "Oh? We didn't do anything....We were supposed to do the shopping? I'm sorry, master didn't tell us to help you in that." Ambitious slave: "We're all slaves. When master commanded the slaves to shop and prepare the food, he meant all of us. It's just that I take sole credit for all the work all the slaves do around here." (The next day) Other slaves: "Hi, fellow slave, we saw that we were out of eggs and milk and we know what's on the menu tonight, so we went out and got groceries to help you out." Ambitious slave: "What! That job was given to me only! How dare you be presumptuous in running ahead of me!" (Four hours later) Slave: "Dinner's ready! Dig in! Oh and thank you dear slaves for doing your part in helping get dinner ready as master commanded." Other slaves: *grown* Ambitious slave: "BTW, I was thinking about what master told me a month ago before he left, and now I'm totally convinced that master wanted us all to eat vegan. So most of the food that was in the fridge, I had to throw out. Including the eggs and milk you bought. It's outside rotting. And if any of your are harboring any beef jerkey or anything animal-produced at all, you must throw it out immediately!" A slave in the back of the room: "I don't understand...master always gave us delicious steak dinners and turkey for Thanksgiving....what makes you so sure that's master wants?" Ambitious slave: "What? How dare you question me! You are running ahead of the slave!" Lowly slave: "The slave? But you said before we're all slaves, I'm not running ahead of myself. I don't want to eat vegan." Slave: "You know what, I just realized that what master meant is that I'm the only slave of his around here. You all are my domestics. Now get to work."

100

2012 annual meeting notes

by lostinthought in

jw
friends

sorry for the wait guys.... .

part one.

moorse had the opening comments talked about historic annual meetings.. .

Leolaia

Slave appointed in 1919 after the cleasing of the temple, russel was not a member of the faithful slave the slave was only taking shape in his day

And between 1919 and 2012, the slave didn't quite understand who the slave in fact was?

198

Rutherford's smear campaign (a must read)

by Leolaia in

there has been some interest recently about the moyle case, and how it may have set a precident in what became the society's disfellowshipping policy.

in july 1939, the chief legal counsel of the watchtower bible & tract society, olin r. moyle, resigned from his position in a protest over conditions at bethel and rutherford's mistreatment of workers.

he did not want to continue living under those conditions and he felt he could effect positive change for his brothers by taking such a stand.

Leolaia

And here are descriptions of the shunning by some of the people who shunned the Moyles:

#41
C. HILTON ELLISON
Q. After Mr. Howlett paid the visit to the Milwaukee company, what effect, if any, did it have upon the division and doubts that were in the minds of the brethren attending the congregation? A. The division was much more marked after that....Q. And those who had not affiliated themselves with Mr. Moyle but who had expressed doubt, did it have any effect upon them as to these charges that Mr. Moyle had made before the congregation? A. They up to that time had come to the conclusion that he was not in harmony with the Society, and therefore they avoided him, as we were told to in the Scriptures. Q. What effect did the article entitled "Information" have upon the minds of these brethren who had such doubts? A. That article confirmed the understanding and the thoughts of those who were opposed to the action taken by Moyle. Q. And those who were indifferent or who were in doubt, did it help them? A. Those who were indifferent or in doubt, it helped them and showed them that Moyle wasn't in harmony with the Society. Q. Tell us what course of action did Mr. Moyle and his friends take in the congregation? A. I would say they came to the meetings but took no part in them, simply sat there during the meetings and then left....

Q. You read the article in the September 1st "Watch Tower", did you not? A. I did. Q. That he was dismissed because he was unfaithful? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you accepted that statement as the word of God's agent, didn't you? A. I accepted it, yes, sir. Q. And that was enough evidence for you to determine that Mr. Moyle acted improperly. A. That is right. Q. So from that time on, you became unfriendly to Mr. Moyle? A. To a certain extent, yes.... Q. You recall the article in the "Watch Tower" of October 15, 1939, entitled "Information," do you? A. Yes, sir....Q. Where he is called a Judas and a murmurer and some other things? A. Yes. Q. And you accepted that also as the words of God's agent? A. As a confirmation of what I knew....Q. And you did not make any investigation about that article? A. No....Q. So you became more unfriendly after you read that article, did you not? A. Yes....Q. You were friendly enough with Mr. Moyle in August to give him a couch, were you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. So this abrupt change of attitude on your part came after September 1st? A. Well, it came after -- I wouldn't say positively it came after September 1st.....

#42
GUY PAULOS
Q. Did the conduct of Mr. Moyle in the company at Milwaukee cause any disturbance or division or strife in the company? A. Very much so.... there was no peace in that company. Many brothers and sisters came up to me and asked me and discussed the thing, how terrible things were since Moyle appeared in that class; everything was peaceful and fine, never had any trouble, and his appearing caused so much trouble and talking about things....Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Fink in reference to Judge Rutherford and Mr. Moyle?.... A. There was a discussion about three-quarters of an hour, and he begin to tell what he done down at the Bethel home -- Q. Who began to tell? A. Fink, about the whole situation, and he condemning the action of the Society, especially Judge Rutherford, and I told Mr. Fink the course of Mr. Moyle was unscriptural. I called attention what Jesus said in Matthew 18, "If thy brother do something wrong to you, go up to your brother and tell about it, and if he won't listen to you, take two or three more brethren and go up and tell him in a Christian manner." And I asked, "Did he do that or not?" "Why," he says, "he couldn't do that. Judge Rutherford, he will rebuke him and he will kick him out of there. So he thought better to put it in letter form." ... I told him I do not believe that for the reason the course that Moyle took was unscriptural, and therefore I could not believe it was right....Q. Your objection here this morning is that Mr. Moyle wrote a letter to Mr. Rutherford, isn't it? A. My whole objection is his course of action was unscriptural....Q. So you thought that was wrong in his writing the letter? A. Unscriptural, that is right. Q. And from that time on, you were unfriendly to Mr. Moyle? A. That is right. Q. And you never made an investigation of the facts contained in that letter, did you? A. I heard word by word...

Q. And you read the "Watch Tower" of September 1, 1939, which said he was dismissed because he was unfaithful? A. That is right. Q. And you agreed with that? A. I did. Q. And you made no investigation of it; you accepted that statement in the "Watch Tower"? A. I accepted it because it was unscriptural. Q. We did not ask you whether it was unscriptural. Did you accept it? A. I did....Q. You heard that Mr. Moyle was asked to leave within 24 hours from Bethel; did you hear that? A. No. Q. Is there anything in the Scriptures that condones asking a man to get out within 24 hours after he had been in an organization for four years? A. There is, in Corinthians. The Apostle Paul writes "For a certain person," he says, "absent in my body was present in spirit. Get out that wicked one at once". ... Q. You think it is all right to let a man go on less than 24 hours' notice after he has been there for four years? A. The Bible says "Avoid them".

#43
HERBERT W. HARKBARTH
Q. And you recall that in that [September 1st] article there was something said about Mr. Moyle being let out of the Society because he was unfaithful? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you accepted that, didn't you? A. Yes. Q. Because it came from the Lord's organization? A. Yes. Q. So you believed it from what you heard? A. Yes, sir. Q. That caused unfriendliness, that article, to Mr. Moyle, did it not, amongst the group in your class? A. Well, I don't know whether it caused unfriendliness towards Mr. Moyle.... Q. After Mr. Howlett had made his visit there what, if anything, did its effect have upon the company? A. There was a disturbance, a confusion or parting. Q. After Mr. Howlett's visit or before? A. More, after. Q. What happened after he came there in reference to the confusion? A. A number of them left the organization. Q. How many? Who did they follow in leaving? A. Why, I can't just speak of who they followed, but they left. Q. How many left? A. Two. Q. Who were they? A. Mrs. Anna Roberts and Carl Otto. Q. After they had left was there peace and harmony in the organization after that? A. Well, sort of a disturbance to this day yet.

9

What you should keep in mind about apologists like Recovery, Alice, etc.

by Fencing in

i don't post here much, but read often.

seen quite a few jw apologists and trolls come and go.

they are almost always successful at getting a good number of people here upset and riled up, leading to personal attacks.

Leolaia

I agree too. I used to be one myself. (Well, in high school) The board would have hated me if it existed back then.