Posts by Jonadab

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

I'm back. I haven't been online lately. Also, a word of thanks for the nice emails I've received from some of you.

I will add this Jonadab. You spoke of "apostate" sites and "apostate literature." But couldn't alot of WTS literature be considered "apostate literature?"

The older literature that is quoted by many 'apostates' served a purpose at the time of writing. Scriptural truths were just just being revealed and understood. The apostasy that was fortold (2 Thes.2:2,3) and that was taking hold even before the death of John had 1800 years to grow and develop. It held many in a strong grip that wasn't easy to let go of. During this time period the 'Wheat and Weeds' grew together (Matt.13:24-30, 36-43). It wasn't easy to tell one from another. This would change though, as Jesus explained. They would be gathered out. Even Isaiah and Micah foretold this (Is.2:2,3; Mic.4:1-3)

Men like Brother Russell were sincere, humble men. I'm sure that if Brother Russell was alive on earth right now he would accept the progressive changes in understanding that have been made since his day. To hold to what he had understood in his day would be like him holding to the false religious teachings that he came to reject after his progressive study of scripture. It is not logical to think that he would do otherwise.

And isn't the very backbone of the WTS to recruit householders, thereby turning them into "apostates" of their former religions?

I guess the same could be said of the early Christians. They were the new, upstart religion of the day. These Jews had dared to reject their heritage and had taken up with this man Jesus. Probably the early Christians were viewed as apostates by the Jews. But were they? No. They followed Jesus, because he was Jehovah's channel for truth. Jehovah rejected the nation of Israel and placed his favor on the spiritual nation of Israel. They were right to change their religion. It would have been wrong of them to stick with their old form of worship at this point, even though it had once been the right way to worship.

The question now is, Should a person stick with a religion that does not conform to Bible teaching? Many continue to follow a faith that celebrates Christmas and Easter, both of which are based on pagan customs and worship of false gods. Even with all the evidence of the false religious background of these holidays these religions do not turn around and reject the false. They still embrace it. The early Bible Students celebrated Christmas at one time, but later rejected it when it became known the false religious connection. That was the right thing to do.

Romans 16:17: I appeal to you, brethen, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
If my father would have heeded this scripture, he certainly would have avoided JWs and remained a Lutheran. But then if everyone heeded the Bible, there would be no Lutheran religion. Ditto for the Witnesses.

If the early Christians had heeded this scripture there would have been no apostasy in the first place. The fact remains that the foretold apostasy did take place and that's why there are so many faiths today all claiming to be Christian. What is needed is a return to the Christianity that Jesus estabished and that God is blessing today. The question is, Who is God blessing?

39

Any Former Wit.Net Posters Here?

by ColdRedRain in

jw
friends

back when i was a member of the borg, wit.net was my favorite site.

it was sorta like this one, only you heard the same, boring fluff all the time (until obie put in the mature subjects board, thanks man!).

i'm wondering who else used to be a regular poster there?

Jonadab

Oh wow, I haven't heard the name Mesko for some time. He died some time ago I heard. He was a thorn in the side for some of the JW db's for a while.

Does anyone know whatever happened to Aisne?

I haven't heard from her for a few years. I heard some rumors that turned out to be false. I got along with her well. She's still in South Africa last I heard and still as opinionated as ever I'd imagine.

Yeah, I was a regular poster at Wit.net. Too bad that Obed got turned around. I enjoyed that site for some time after he left the MiningCo.

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

deddaisy said:

One question though Jonadab. How in the world can you truly believe that Jehovah had Russell and co. believe in pyramids, only to later have them abandon the belief?

I don't believe that it was Jehovah who caused Russell to believe in pyramids. As I said before this was a popular concept at the time. Russell and others were sloughing off false religious ideas and this was one of them. There were many other things that were later abandoned. They still celebrated Christmas at first. This wasn't abandoned until Rutherford's time. It is common knowledge these days about the roots of this celebration.

Simon said:

I think deddaisy is right - we are not going to convince each other but I think most arguments are really aimed at the fence-sitters who may be watching

I must agree with you both. I wish that there was something I could do to convince you, but I will admit that the only ones here who would get anything out of this exchange are those 'fence-sitters' Simon mentioned. That was not my intention though. I did not come here to argue, but to answer some questions and hopefully give a different perspective on subjects under consideration. I will still look in and give a comment or two from time to time. I hope that is ok.

Peace to you too Christina.

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

ruebenfine said:

Has You Know made a comeback??

I am not You Know. I have posted here before under a different name, but it was quite some time ago and only 2 or 3 times. I'm sure that if I mentioned my former name it would not ring any bells of recognition with anyone.

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

ruebenfine said:

How would you have reacted in my case? (I posted earlier but you didn't respond). I was told I needed to lie and violate my conscience to be in good standing. Please add that up for me. I applied Jesus' counsel and demanded an apology, which didn't come. Elders all down the line goose-stepped in unison. How do you add that up? Please tell me what it adds up to. It's pretty easy, and I'm sure you can figure it out since I see you know what 1+1 equals. My good name was slandered to an entire body of elders without proof. What does that add up to?

I'm sorry rueben, but I can't offer any comments on a judicial case about which I have no knowledge. I couldn't comment on a situation where I didn't know the stories from both parties and it really isn't my place to make a judgement either. You're right about one thing though... I'm not a betting man. Not even if I was offered the winning ticket. You're wrong about a couple of things.

First, I do care about what you went through. To know that you are innocent and have your good name slandered is not an easy thing to bear. To seek help from elsewhere and not to find it can be devastating. I have no idea how long this went on or to the extent it affected you, but I am aware that things of this nature do occur from time to time. If it didn't then the elders would be perfect people and there would be no need of Appeals Committees. The fact of the matter is that elders have a serious responsibility before Jehovah and to take it lightly or to abuse the position of responsibility that has been placed upon them is serious indeed.

Second, I am a serious Witness. The Watchtower quotes I made came straight out of the Proclaimers book. I do have an extensive collection of Watchtower publications dating back to Studies in the Scriptures, though. I am 3rd generation in the truth, by choice. I am well aware of our history and the changes that we have gone through.

deddaisy said:

Jonadab, I for one have absolutely no fight with you. I believe that you are a man of worth for bothering to spend your time here.

Thanks!

Pyramids Jonadab ! No wonder Rutherford had a Pyramid at his grave site. This is "progressive light?"

As I mentioned above I have an extensive collection of Watchtower publications, so I am very much aware of information relating to the Great Pyramid in Brother Russell's writings. To make a slight correction, it was Russell who had a pyramid at his gravesite, not Rutherford. I'm sure that's what you meant anyhow. The idea that the Great Pyramid was God's witness in stone was a popular notion at the time. It came from the British Israelite movement. No, this was not progressive light. The fact that this notion was later rejected does show that progressive light.

jv 200 14 "They Are No Part of the World"

For some 35 years, Pastor Russell thought that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was Gods stone witness, corroborating Biblical time periods. (Isa. 19:19) But Jehovahs Witnesses have abandoned the idea that an Egyptian pyramid has anything to do with true worship. (See "Watchtower" issues of November 15 and December 1, 1928)

This, Jonadab, is what I've been trying to say all along, "it does NOT BELONG to you (us) to get knowledge of the times which the FATHER has placed in his own jurisdiction."

May I respectfully disagree. If were not meant 'to get knowledge of the times' then why does the Bible have so much chronology attached to its prophecies? Why did Jesus give his disciples such a detailed sign of his future presence? Why was Daniel given the information regarding the appearance of the Messiah in his 70 weeks of years prophecy? Why give all this information if we were never supposed to know the answers?

Daniel 12:4, 9, 10 states: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."..... And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.

So you see, it was not Jehovah's time at this point for his people to understand the words Daniel recorded here. It was for a future time. When it was Jehovah's will that it be understood then, as was recorded above 'the [true] knowledge will become abundant'. We are living during this time period now. This knowledge wouldn't be given to all though. Only those 'having insight' would be given the ability to understand. It would be withheld from those deemed wicked.

Revelation 19:1

After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: "Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God,

I assume that you quoted this scripture because it refers to a great crowd as being in heaven. Let me quote the Insight book...

it-1 995-6
GREAT CROWD
An expression that, in itself, is quite common in the Christian Greek Scriptures. "Great crowd(s)" is sometimes used with regard to the large groups of persons who heard Jesus Christs public teaching. (Mt 14:14; 19:2; 20:29) After the vision of the destruction of the symbolic Babylon the Great, the apostle John heard "what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven." (Re 19:1) At Revelation 7:9, however, "a great crowd" is mentioned whose identification has particularly been a matter of keen interest.In this chapter, the apostle John first refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (Re 7:2-8) After this, he saw in a vision "a great crowd" out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. These ascribe their salvation to God and to the Lamb as they stand before Gods throne. They have come out of "the great tribulation," they serve God in his temple, and he spreads his tent over them. All their hunger and thirst are to be ended and every tear is to be wiped from their eyes as his Son (the Lamb; Joh 1:29) guides them to the waters of life.Re 7:9-17.

Just because this scripture mentions a great crowd in heaven doesn't mean that it is the same great crowd referred to at Rev. 7:9. I think that you already knew that though and you were just yanking the poor brothers chains. Shame on you. lol

onacruse said:

Jonadab: It disappoints me, but somehow doesn't surprise me, that you would make such an unequivocal statement. I, as well as many many others in this forum, were baptized before the WTS changed the baptismal vows to include loyalty to the organization. We, at least, could leave without breaking any vows.

When I spoke of vows I was referring to the one you made to Jehovah when you dedicated your life to serve him in prayer. Do you still feel that you are serving Jehovah with your whole heart, mind and strength?

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

I'm sorry that some of you seem so impatient. I spend very little time on the internet. The majority of my time is taken up with family and theocratic responsibilities, as well as secular employment. Perhaps a quick answer would have been best as I really haven't had time these past few days and I doubt very much that anything I have to say now would be met with any appreciation.

I will say that our understanding and knowledge in most fields of study has been progressive. Look at how far science and medicine has come in the last 100 years or so. Where would we be if Louis Pasteur hadn't made his discoveries regarding bacteria? You could make lists of who did what and discovered what for the next year and not be done. The fact remains that we don't just sit down and get it right, all of it, the first time.

Look how truth was revealed progressively by Jehovah regarding the seed of the woman as mentioned at Genesis 3:15. Abraham was told that it would come through his line. Later Isaac and Jacob had the same promise related to them. Later still David was told that the promised seed would come through his lineage. Daniel didn't understand things he wrote about. "Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand." (Daniel 12:8) Jesus told the apostles that "It does not belong to

YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction". (Acts 1:7)

Look where mankind went spiritually after the death of the apostles. "Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."(2 Thessalonians 2:3) False religious teachings made their way into the Christian congregation and remained there through the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, the Reformation and on into the era of the Higher Criticism. Also came The Communist Manifesto and atheism. This period brought with it belief in the immortality of the soul, hellfire, purgatory, indulgences, predestination, the Trinity doctrine, a division of clergy and laity, and many other unscriptural teachings. The Reformation did nothing to correct this situation. All it ended up doing is breaking free from papal authority. It kept most of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

This is the climate from which C.T. Russell and others had to start from. How could you expect them to sit down and get it all right from the start? Even brother Russell had to acknowledge that. In 1882, C.T. Russell wrote: "The Bible is our only standard, and its teachings our only creed, and recognizing the progressive character of the unfolding of Scriptural truths, we are ready and prepared to add to or modify our creed (faithbelief) as we get increase of light from our Standard." (Watch Tower, April 1882, p. 7). Did they believe that they had all the answers, the full light of truth? To that question Brother Russell pointedly answered: "Certainly not; nor will we have until the perfect day." Frequently they referred to their Scriptural beliefs as "present truth", not with any idea that truth itself changes but rather with the thought that their understanding of it was progressive.

The Watchtower of July 1879 said: "Truth, like a modest little flower in the wilderness of life, is surrounded and almost choked by the luxuriant growth of the weeds of error. If you would find it you must be ever on the lookout. If you would see its beauty you must brush aside the weeds of error and the brambles of bigotry. If you would possess it you must stoop to get it. Be not content with one flower of truth. Had one been sufficient there would have been no more. Gather ever, seek for more."

Right from the start there was emphasis given to using Jehovah's name.
The Trinity doctrine was exposed as false.
The condition of the dead.
The soul is the person themselves, not a part that leaves after death.
Hellfire and eternal torment is unscriptural.
The ransom sacrifice of Jesus.
Jesus return would be invisible.
1914 would mark the end of the Gentile Times.

These are just a few truths we still hold to. There are many others, but I'm not going to list everything for you. Do your own research. Don't just look for the differences between now and then. Brother Russell was humble enough to know that he didn't know it all and that truth would continue to be revealed as time went on. I'm sure that if Brother Russell were alive now he would willingly accept the progressive changes that have been made. Christendom's churches will admit on one hand that many of their celebrations and doctrines have no support in scripture, but do they abandon these and follow what the Bible teaches? No. They still cling to many of the same doctrines they taught during the Dark Ages.

Think to about Jesus illustration of the 'Wheat and Weeds'. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43) The difference between the two wasn't going to be discernable immediately. During a period of time the difference would become apparent though. This took time for both groups to grow and show themselves for what they were. This too shows that things would be progressive and not immediately discernable.

I fully realize that this post will not be acceptable to many. I never thought it would be. I'm sure that it will be met with criticism. There are those out there would also argue with the fact that 1+1=2. I once met a man in field service, a school teacher mind you, that argued with my wife and I about the existance of the tree in his front yard or whether we were real or not. In his mind the senses could fool you and he even went so far as to saying that he may not even exist. What foolishness.

We are living during a time where prophecy is being fulfilled, whether you choose to believe it or not. Many of you were once dedicated, baptized Witnesses of Jehovah. No one twisted your arm to go through this. You took a vow which some of you have willingly broken and now morn the consequence(disfellowshipping) of your actions. The time has come to quit 'sitting on the fence'. Either you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses or you are not. Those of you who are sitting on the fence now are going to have to make up your mind one way or another. If this new program to contact the inactive is a way to determine which side you are on it was bound to come sooner or later. This choice had to be made many times before. There are numerous accounts in the Bible to back this up.

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

jesussaves said:

Eli and his sons were executed by God. If the Governing Body is executed by God, then maybe I'll consider coming back to the hall (just kidding)!

I didn't think that it required a response or that you were looking for one. If this is what it would take to get you to come back to the Kingdom Hall I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

the only book I need to read to learn about God is the Bible

Acts 8:26-36

27 With that he rose and went, and, look! an Ethio'pian eunuch, a man in power under Canda'ce queen of the Ethio'pians, and who was over all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. 29 So the spirit said to Philip: "Approach and join yourself to this chariot." 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: "Do you actually know what you are reading?"31 He said: "Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?" And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading aloud was this: "As a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and as a lamb that is voiceless before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33 During his humiliation the judgment was taken away from him. Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth."

34

In answer the eunuch said to Philip: "I beg you, About whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?" 35 Philip opened his mouth and, starting with this Scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus. 36 Now as they were going over the road, they came to a certain body of water, and the eunuch said: "Look! A body of water; what prevents me from getting baptized?"

From the scripture above it is evident that the Ethiopian man had a knowledge of the scriptures and had access to them in order to read them for himself. This was not enough for him though. He needed guidance in order to properly understand them, so Philip was directed by Jehovah's angel to speak to the man. I believe that today the faithful and discreet slave class, through their governing body, is being guided by holy sprit to dispense this same understanding of scripture. If this comes in the form of the printed page instead of at the hand of an angelically-guided servant of Jehovah, then I don't see the difference. But, if you feel that all you require is your Bible and that you can go it on your own I wish you well in your endeavors.

Spaznik said:

I'm also wondering if and how you count your time spent preaching here? Do you count the amount of time it takes to compose your posts, or the amount of time it takes an average person to read your posts? Or do you report it at all?

I do not count time for this. Until you mentioned it the thought had never even crossed my mind. I consider that the time I have spent here is mainly with those who would be considered spiritually weak or inactive. It is not my intention to debate with those who proudly refer to themselves as 'apostates'. I feel that would be a waste of my time and energy and would accomplish nothing.

I'm wondering though, how you rationalize disobeying the society's encouragement to stay away from sites like this.

Simon has offered this site as a public forum to discuss Jehovah's Witnesses and things Witness related. It is not advertised to be an apostate website, although there are those here who have been disfellowshipped for apostacy posting here. I am not in the habit of searching for sites to read apostate literature, but I will tell you that I am familiar with things that Ray Franz has written about. I am also familiar with Randy Watters and his story, as well as many other matters that are discussed in this forum. I do not have my head buried in the sand, as some may like to think. There may be bumps and warts on the trees if that is what you are looking for, but one also has to take the time to stand back to view the beauty of the forest.

It is not my intention to be drawn into debates, nor do I consider that I have come here to 'preach'. The time I spend in the preaching work is done in the normal fashion. I go from door-to-door, return visits and I have a number of Bible studies also.

I will tell you one of the reasons I have come here. I knew a young man who had been raised in the truth in a wonderful loving Christian home. His family is very active in the congregation. He had a few personality conflicts that he couldn't get past. They weren't anything of major concern. I talked to him about them at the time. It wasn't anything that I hadn't gone through myself. The fact of the matter is he began to spend a lot of his time online reading apostate material and dwelling on it to the exclusion of everything else. He tried to show his family and get them to read it also. It troubled him to the extent that it ruined his faith. All the things he had been taught by his parents went down the drain. He now saw nothing but the bumps and warts. I feel very bad about this. He was once a happy young man with a hope for the future. I feel bad that this happened to him. I guess I wanted in part to reach out to those who were going through a similar crisis as my young friend.

I realise that most of you disagree with me, but I am glad that some have expressed appreciation for the respectful manner in which I am trying to present myself. I am trying to understand your feelings. In turn, hopefully, you will understand mine.

I am trying to work backwards in responding to your questions. Please be patient with me. I am working on a reply to Simon.

Edited by - Jonadab on 21 December 2002 14:27:45

Edited by - Jonadab on 21 December 2002 14:28:46

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

Hello jesussaves.

Jonadab, can you please explain to me how the majority of the whole can be corrupt, but the entire whole thought of as clean and pure? I believe that there is a such thing as true Christianity. It doesn't involve denomination or church membership. It involves being a follower of Christ.

I don't believe that 'the majority of the whole' is corrupt. The majority of brothers and sisters I have met over many, many years in the truth are fine examples of what Christians should be. I also have seen that the majority of elders try their level best to do their job out of love for the brothers. I have known the other kind too and they are in the minority by a long shot. I guess you were using hyperbole.

How would you see Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19, 20 being accomplished if it was not done in an organised way? Even the first century Christians were organised into congregations. Paul gave the counsel at Hebrews 10:23-25 to 'not forsake the gathering of ourselves together'. How would Christians get together to upbuild and encourage one another if they never met together? Being a follower of Christ means not only believing what Jesus taught, but following his example and obeying his commands.

As a JW, Jehovah was a mean, judging God that didn't answer my prayers as a child or as an adult.

I would recommend that you read the same book I told Christina about. I'm sure that it would give you a totally different outlook on what the Bible has to say about Jehovah.

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

Hi Christina. Yes, I did get a lot of questions didn't I. I will get around to responding, but my time online is limited at the moment, so please bear with me.

Christina, you said...

When I began reading the Bible without the WTS "aids," I found myself with sincere questions. Yet when I would seek sincere answers, I would be directed to yet another WTS publication...

... and then I went and suggested another WTS publication to read. I see what you're saying, but I still think it is a good book and it would help to give you a better incite into the matter. If anything it will guide you to the scriptures and you can look them up in your own copy of the Bible and decide for yourself.

I do remember that Watchtower cover you provided the link to and I do see how many would find it 'disturbing'. But answer a question for me or for yourself. If it was God's original purpose to have mankind live forever in a beautiful home on earth and his purpose has not changed, how could this be accomplished if wickedness was not removed? Think back to the flood of Noah's day. Doesn't Matthew 24:37-39 say, "For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." It wasn't so much that everyone was wicked and evil, but that they were so caught up in their everyday lives they had no time for their Creator. Doesn't God deserve our consideration, our attention and love if he is the one we owe our very lives to? Doesn't God have the right to preserve life and take a life that he has created?

Jehovah doesn't enjoy destroying people. He wants all to live. Think of how he sent prophet after prophet to plead with the Israelites. At Ezekiel 33:11 he said to them, "As I am alive," is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, "I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel?"

We don't look forward to seeing anyone die at Armageddon either. There are many basically good people in the world today. I'm sure there were in Noah's day too. We have family and friends, workmates, schoolmates, neighbors and many others we meet on a daily basis who we would like to see enjoy life forever in a beautiful earthly paradise. But where are you going to draw the line at who enjoys this future and who doesn't? I wouldn't want to be the one who makes this decision and I dare say that most of us don't want to be in that position either. I'm glad that Jehovah has set the standards, can read what is in our hearts and is in the position to judge righteously. Jehovah is the 'potter' and we're the 'clay'. It's his decision and he has the right.

I still think you should read that book.

Edited by - Jonadab on 20 December 2002 18:35:10

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

deddaisy said:

Because after studying and attending meetings for years, I grew to dislike God. I definitely believed in him, but my beliefs regarding God would swing back and forth between: 1) the Witnesses must be mistaken about Jehovah, he could read hearts so why would he kill based on religion and not on one's heart? 2) God must be unloving and unyielding to destroy even the people that have given to others while they have not much to begin with, only because they aren't JWs. So I figured then that either 1) God would read hearts not religions at Armageddon, or 2) God was unloving while demanding love himself and, in that case, he could kill me because I didn't want to live forever under his rule.

Christina, your comments left me a little speechless. From belief in God to disliking God to not being sure of or feeling it's important "who or what God is" is quite a distance to travel. It makes me think that you, like many others, never got to fully understand who Jehovah is, how he thinks and how he feels. I'm sure that none of us are fully capable of understanding this. We do get to know him by what he reveals about himself in the scriptures and by seeing how Jesus lived his life.

I don't know whether you have any Witness contacts or not, but may I suggest a bit of reading for you? It couldn't hurt and it might help you to get some incite and a better perspective. Last summer the book Draw Close to Jehovah was released. It goes into Jehovah's four attributes of love, wisdom, justice and power and how Jehovah balances the four in his dealings with people. If you can get hold of this book it is worth reading.

I would have emailed you, but I see that it is locked. I hope that you see this post.