Posts by AndDontCallMeShirley

27

The totally BOGUS idea of CERTAINTY inside the Watchtower religion

by Terry in

i'm going to ask a question and it is a very simple question.

think about it before you answer.

are you ready?.

AndDontCallMeShirley

The Watchtower's only power over Jehovah's Witnesses is fear. If WT became less tyrannical and legalistic, and admitted they don't have all the answers and have been horribly wrong about many things, I believe most JWs would reconsider their affiliation with the Org. Other than a lifetime of hard work, what does a JW get back from the religion? Nothing. If the spiritual carrot is exposed as hopelessly flawed, then the captivating force is shattered.

WT keeps people in the Org. by using emotional blackmail- disfellowshipping.

WT maintains the illusion or correctness by holding to the exclusivity of being the only right religion.

Admitting mistakes means undermining the claim of being guided by God and opens the door to critical-thinking and questioning among the rank-and-file. The governing body must retain absolute control in order to survive.

The GB would rather have a religion that appears superficially cohesive, glued together only by fear, than be honest and humble and risk losing members.

63

BROTHERS & SISTERS - READ THE BROCHURE!

by The Searcher in

jesus always used illustrations to help people reason on the import of what he was saying.

here is an illustration followed by a reality;.

imagine that your heart went out to all those poor people who suffered when fukushima blew up, so much so, that when an internationally renowned charity asked for donations to help those in need, you donated $5000 to the cause.

AndDontCallMeShirley

david_10 said: Anyway, I still don't know what to think of a Witness homeowner getting his house fixed for free and then keeping all the money.

ADCMS: I re-read your post. I think in one way you are acknowledging an obvious scam in the way WT has handled matters with disaster relief. On the other hand, you take issue with a point no one here was advocating and you mentioned it twice in your post i.e. that JWs should keep their insurance check while receiving free help. Not one person commenting on this topic even remotely suggested a JW homeowner should profit from receiving disaster aid. Your comments were somewhat self-contradictory.

Are you related to TheOldHippie by any chance?

david_10 said: No, ADCMS, I've never met him, although he doesn't seem like such a bad person to me

ADCMS: again, you object to a fictitious point I never raised.

I questioned OldHippie's logic and the fact that he/she seemed to miss the whole point of the discussion, but never once did I say or infer anything negative about OldHippie's character. He/she is probably a nice person....but I didn't comment on that in my posts either, so bringing it up is a misdirection.

OldHippie was dismissing eye-witness accounts of what's been observed Re: Assembly Hall "rent" scams and disaster relief scams and came across as a WT apologist. The points OH raised as a defense of WT tactics were without basis in logic or fact. I was correcting those incorrect views.

I got the impression that neither you nor OldHippie read the various posts very carefully, because you drew conclusions that had nothing to do with any of the comments made. I was trying to dial you both back into the discussion, nothing more. If my comments came across differently than that, then I apologize.

4

"Literary Heritage"? Is this new Watchtower newspeak??

by never a jw in

i decided to send a rather flippant e-mail to an elder who gave me a bible study in the late 90's.

he's a zealot among zealots.

he inhales and exhales wt 24/7.

AndDontCallMeShirley

While the Watchtower blatantly challenges non-Jehovah's Witnesses to question their beliefs and be willing to leave their religion if it cannot be reconciled with the Bible, that same right is not afforded to Jehovah's Witnesses themselves. Isn't it ironic that an organization that has fought all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court demanding religious freedom and freedom of speech for itself, then turns around and denies those rights to its own members?!

This elder that never a jw quotes is typical of Jehovah's Witnesses: they have a loathing and morbid fear of answering questions or thinking critically about their own beliefs. Deep down I really do think that most JWs know that many of their beliefs rest on shaky ground and cannot stand up to scrutiny. Ironically, this WT article promotes correct thinking, but denies this methodology to JWs. And, unfortunately WT fails to see that the first application of the advice applies first and foremost to itself:

"Your religion should have solid basis, not on religious leaders, not on religious systems, but on God’s Word, the Bible

You should make sure your religion speaks according to God’s Word before you hold fast to it.

If you learn that your religion is teaching what is not right, you should let go of that religion...

w58 5/1 p.261 Is Your Religion the Right One?

How can you tell whether your religion is the right one or not? A simple way of telling is to expose it to a test of God’s Word. If your religion is not in accord with what the Bible teaches, then it is not in harmony with truth. It is not right. "And if they speak not according to this word, they shall not have the morning light," said God. It is important, then, that you "keep testing whether you are in the faith," as Paul declared. Keep checking to see whether the things you believe are in keeping with God’s Word. But the question is, Are you willing to put your religion through such a test?There is nothing to fear, because if you have the right religion you can only be reassured by the examination. And if what you believe is not in keeping with the Bible, then you should welcome the truth, because it leads to light and life.—Isa. 8:20, Dy; 2 Cor. 13:5.

27

The totally BOGUS idea of CERTAINTY inside the Watchtower religion

by Terry in

i'm going to ask a question and it is a very simple question.

think about it before you answer.

are you ready?.

AndDontCallMeShirley

Well put, Terry.

Next year it will be 2014. ONE HUNDRED YEARS of false dates, doctrinal tampering and embarassing public humiliations to examine as proof.

In reality, the Watchtower has nearly 140 years of false dates and false prophecies. This is how the religion started with Russell, with his promoting the doctrine that Jesus returned in 1874 and Armageddon was due in 1914. So, from day one, this religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses has been hopelessly flawed and even more incorrect than other religions it so shamelessly condemns.

You are correct: the lack of humility, the hubris, of WT leadership is astonishing. For a religion that has a 100% failure rate for their prophecies and false dates, and continual flip-flopping and/or abandonment of core doctrines, you'd think at some point they'd recognize their error and make the necessary corrections in attitude. To your point, yes, this would be a better religion if the GB started to show some humility and recognize that Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower have good and bad points- just like any other religion. They are not special.

But, as pointed out in the book, "Captives to a Concept", from day one starting with Russell and all the way to today, this Organization operates under the absolutely delusional and fallacious concept that it, and it alone, is the only religion chosen by God, and therefore, ridiculously absurd doctrines and false prophecies are justified as somehow working into god's plan. Even when the 'faithful and discreet slave' is blatantly wrong, in their minds they are still 100% right.

Logic cannot compete with that mindset.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe."
- Carl Sagan

4

"Literary Heritage"? Is this new Watchtower newspeak??

by never a jw in

i decided to send a rather flippant e-mail to an elder who gave me a bible study in the late 90's.

he's a zealot among zealots.

he inhales and exhales wt 24/7.

AndDontCallMeShirley

"They will not get into debate with teorist whose "finding" are at best deficient and unproductive"

This is a such a classic, and stupid, JW response. If you never debate with people or listen to their views, how do you know their findings are "deficient" or "unproductive"? And, asking simple questions of a JW always elicits a response of defense and suspicion- they are so afraid of anybody who is willing to think and reason. This Elder's response is interesting in light of this Watchtower comment:

"When persons are in great danger from a source that they do not suspect or are being misled by those they consider their friends, is it an unkindness to warn them? They may prefer not to believe the warning. They may even resent it. But does that free one from the moral responsibility to give that warning? If you are among those seeking to be faithful to God, the issues these questions raise are vital for you today. Why? Because God's servants in every period of history have had to face up to the challenge these issues present. They have had to expose falsehood and wrongdoing and warn people of dangers and deception—not just in a general way, but in a specific way, in the interest of pure worship. It would have been far easier to keep silent or say only what people wanted to hear. But faithfulness to God and love of neighbor moved them to speak. They realized that 'better is a revealed reproof than a concealed love.'"

(Watchtower, January 15, 1974)

or....

"How will you respond when pointed statements are made about false religious teachings and corrupt practices? Will you immediately condemn the person or organization making the exposé? Do you feel it is all right to teach lies and misrepresent God's Word, but wrong to expose the error? Contrary to what some may think, it is not unkind and unloving to lay bare falsehood and corruption."

(Watchtower, March 1, 1966)

22

TAKE THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY QUIZ How many can you get right?

by Terry in

true or false?.

11. has the watchtower society itself ever celebrated a birthday?

**watch tower reprints 1883 pp.

AndDontCallMeShirley

Terry-

To answer your question about Beth-Sarim:

"From 1929 on, Brother Rutherford spent the winters working at a San Diego residence he had named Beth Sarim. Beth Sarim was built with funds that were a direct contribution for that purpose. The deed, which was published in full in "The Golden Age" of March 19, 1930, conveyed this property to J.F. Rutherford and thereafter to the Watch Tower Society".

Concerning Beth Sarim, the book "Salvation," published in 1939, explains: "The Hebrew words 'Beth Sarim' mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth." (Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, 1993. p.76)

On March 15, 1930 in the San Diego Sun the following appeared: "San Diego Mansion--With All Modern Improvements--Awaits Earthly Return of Prophets."

---

it was completed prior to 1929 and Rutherford was living in it. It was deeded by 1930.

63

BROTHERS & SISTERS - READ THE BROCHURE!

by The Searcher in

jesus always used illustrations to help people reason on the import of what he was saying.

here is an illustration followed by a reality;.

imagine that your heart went out to all those poor people who suffered when fukushima blew up, so much so, that when an internationally renowned charity asked for donations to help those in need, you donated $5000 to the cause.

AndDontCallMeShirley

TheOldHippie said:

"So - just to get it straight - what you think is correct seen from the side of the houseowner who had his house destroyed, is to have volunteer JWs rebuild his house for free, receive new furniture donated either as furniture or as money given by JWs, and THEN receive and keep the full amount of insure money paid to him by his insurance agency?

Both ways, in other words?"

---

ADCMS: Not once did I or anyone else here suggest the JW homeowner should get their home repaired for free and then keep their insurance check too. I made that clear in my comments. What I did say is that quoting the homeowner a rate that would be charged by a secular, for-profit company for the same work is not right. The WT pretends it had a huge outlay of material and labor costs that it needs to be compensated for. It's untrue.

As I said earlier:

Quoting the couple a figure of $30,000 was out of line. I have no doubt this couple would've donated something to the WT disaster relief once they got their check, because they were very appreciative, but the way the WT goes about it really amounts to blackmail. Expecting full retail repayment with zero outlay on Watchtower's part is unconscionable.

Regarding the exhorbitant daily "rent" fees for assembly halls, TheOldHippie said:

"Well, it was built once, wasn't it? And that did cost some money, did'nt it? And that means loans will have to be paid, doesn't it?"

ADCMS: I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or you breeze through comments here so fast you don't really understand what's being said. The assembly hall I attended was fully paid for before construction was completed. Therefore, a cost of $10,000 a day to use it is beyond explanation. Saying" it was built once, wasn't it"? and "that did cost some money, did'nt it?" shows you completely missed the point or refuse to see it. Everyone here understands that there are ongoing costs, like electricity, water, routine maintenance, etc. But when you figure up annual "rent" collections versus these actual expenses, the figures don't add up.

Let me illustrate it in a way you might understand:

If you paid off your mortgage, but your bank continued to send you a bill every month in the amount of your mortgage, would you continue to pay it without question? If you questioned your bank as to why you were still being billed for your mortgage after paying it off, and your bank replied, "Well, it was built once, wasn't it? And that did cost some money, did'nt it? And that means loans will have to be paid, doesn't it?", would you find that to be an acceptable answer? If you say "yes" then I'd have to question your sanity. Your flip question answers the question: yes, the Assembly Hall was built ONCE-that's the point! That means one time- not over and over again. Yes, it did cost money- no one here thinks assembly halls are free. You present completely vacuous statements that seem to have no other purpose than to provoke arguments.

------

david_10 said: "I lean toward what OldHippie said, though: Why should a homeowner get to double-dip, so to speak? It doesn't seem fair to me that a homeowner should get his house restored and then be able to keep all the money....Anyway, I still don't know what to think of a Witness homeowner getting his house fixed for free and then keeping all the money. "

ADCMS: No one here even remotely suggested anything like this. Re-read the comments. The JWs we did work for were very, very appreciative and I have no doubt they would have made generous donations in order to help others. However, quoting them inflated/unrealistic cost figures is not honest. For argument's sake, let's say that Watchtower had $1,000 in actual costs associated with helping a JW family repair their home. Expecting $30,000 for that work is a scam. Suggesting that, once they get their insurance check, they would consider donating that amount, or a little more, back into a fund to help other families get the same assistance is reasonable. I don't know how you can conclude anyone here was saying that a homeowner should get a nice payday out of it. Are you related to TheOldHippie by any chance?

----

I agree with SkyGreen: In relation to the Katrina/ Insurance thing. Perhaps a more appropriate thing for the Work Crew Team leader would be to encourage the recipient of all that voluntary labour to use some or all of their insurance cheque to help the volunteers out with their expenses, rather than give the estimated cost to the WTS. Or not suggest anything at all, just know that someone who is a brother or sister will do the right thing, and let them exercise their conscience in the matter!

ADCMS: None of the volunteer JW workers got a dime to offset their personal costs, and none of them expected that- they volunteered out of genuine love. However, for WT to expect compensation for those volunteer's efforts, when WT had no cost, is unconscionable. I know many JWs who absorbed thousands of dollars in personal costs in order to help- time off work, donating materials, travel expenses, lodging, food, etc.

27

Newbie Here- but I've been here the whole time

by TheDarksideHasCalledMe in

jw
friends

my wife and in-laws are now here and i'm on now.

i'm going to copy and paste my first post from jwstruggle...... my story is, i grew up as a jw.

my parents found out later on and didn't tell anyone.

AndDontCallMeShirley

"Luke, I am your father. Come to the dark side of The Force"

ADCMS: Welcome TDSHCM! I am an acronym and okay with that. You are now an acronym- embrace it!!

Loved your story. Glad you've escaped and found a new life.

TDSHCM said: Since then I have returned back to the filth and debauchery of this world....back to the original time before I was a JW. I'm 5 years old again. I'm running around naked, pissing on my neighbors lawn and raising hell. It's not such a bad life

You just described my life since leaving WT ! LOL. I'm not 5 years old anymore, so running around naked and pissing on my neighbor's lawn carries a little more risk- at least a misdemeanor in my State. A felony if I do it during the daytime.

22

TAKE THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY QUIZ How many can you get right?

by Terry in

true or false?.

11. has the watchtower society itself ever celebrated a birthday?

**watch tower reprints 1883 pp.

AndDontCallMeShirley

Terry-

One small correction to your quiz:

Rutherford was the THIRD president of the Watchtower Society !

#1- William H. Conley

#2- C.T. Russell

#3- J. Rutherford

*** jv chap. 26 p. 576 Producing Bible Literature for Use in the Ministry ***

The following year the first of an extensive series of tracts designed to interest people in Bible truths was prepared for publication. This work quickly took on immense proportions. In order to handle it, Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was formed on February 16, 1881, with W. H. Conley as president and C. T. Russell as secretary and treasurer

... .In 1884, Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was legally incorporated, with C. T. Russell as president,

---

Great post, Terry ! So few JWs would be able to answer any of these questions.

One other point:

Notice how originally, "Bible" was not in the official name of the Watchtower Society? It's name was Watch Tower Tract Society. That says a lot, doesn't it? Freddie Franz actually bragged about this and used it as justification for the Watchtower focusing solely on distributing its own literature and minimizing Bible distribution, saying this was for Christendom's churches to do, not the WT Society!

63

BROTHERS & SISTERS - READ THE BROCHURE!

by The Searcher in

jesus always used illustrations to help people reason on the import of what he was saying.

here is an illustration followed by a reality;.

imagine that your heart went out to all those poor people who suffered when fukushima blew up, so much so, that when an internationally renowned charity asked for donations to help those in need, you donated $5000 to the cause.

AndDontCallMeShirley

Incognito said: I've heard some elders try to justify the elevated assembly cost by comparing the cost of attending a professional sporting event or theatrical show. As we would pay a large amount to attend those events, they say we should gladly pay at least the same to Jah.

ADCMS: That reasoning is pretty lame, isn't it? If you think about it, everyone at a sports event or theatrical show is being paid. The facility is charging a lot for rent, etc. You can see why a ticket for a concert or sporting event is so expensive when you have athletes making $15 million a year or an entertainer making $100 million for a concert tour. These are businesses that have high overhead AND make huge profits.

So how can anyone representing WT compare the two things with a straight face? Assembly Hall- mortgage free, built by slave labor, maintained by slave labor. It's a religion so there's no taxes. No paid speakers; no food service, no amenities whatsover. Why can a circuit rent a school auditorium for $1500 a day but it can't use it's own facility for the same cost? You can see a reasonable amount for water, electricity, routine maintenance, etc.- that's only common sense. But, as dissonance_resolved pointed out, they recently had a one-day assembly rent expense of $21,000!! That defies all logic. You start figuring up $10k/dayor more times 40 weekends a year, and that goes way beyond paying for paper towels and paint.

we should gladly pay at least the same to Jah. I wonder what Jehovah's annual income is if he's getting "paid" for all this theocratic activity? He's gotta be at the top of the list near Bill Gates or Warren Buffet! Religion is good business apparently. If he owns everything and can just snap his fingers to get whatever he wants instantly, isn't it amazing that an Elder thinks Jah needs to be "paid". Idiots!

God- making a quick buck off of janitors- doesn't it make you all gushy inside?

Personally, I'd love to see the day when all the average Joe publishers at an assembly refuse to donate anything until a detailed financial accounts report was read from the platform justifying the exhorbitant rent fees. If the explanation doesn't make sense, then no one donates a penny! And, I'd love to see the Elders who vote in the ridiculous extra donation sent to the WT without asking permission have to foot that bill themselves! Since they didn't ask the rank-and-file for permission, then the rank-and-file shouldn't be on the hook for it.

The sad thing is JWs don't even feel they have a right to question any of this. WT says "pay" so the JW gets out his wallet, no questions asked.