Yep. Thanks for sharing your notes. Don't forget about the U.N. issue, as well as revisionist history about their idea of what 1914 meant then and now. Also, what biblical precedent is there to support their harsh reinstatement process for those who were df'd or da'd? There isn't one.
Bonsai
JoinedPosts by Bonsai
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27
One month researching my doubts: my crucial issues with WTBTS - what are yours?
by Tornintwo inso after 20 years a convert, about a month ago i decided to start listening to my doubts and to do independent research about the wtbts teachings (naughty me).
as a result i have consolidated my position on various points and these are my major issues with the wtbts teachings, i am posting these to help myself figure things out (with your assistance) and hopefully to hear from others at their stage of drawing away from the gb - newbies' especially.
in the form of notes so hope you dont mind...child abuse.
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88
Damned if they do, Damned if they don't
by FusionTheism ini see an attitude among some people here which is not very helpful.
i can understand it, but still, it's not constructive or helpful.. if you condemn the society for not changing, but then you also condemn them when they do change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the society to ever want to change for the better?.
also, what does that attitude look like to current witnesses who are having doubts?.
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Bonsai
My loved ones are still being shunned for petty offenses.
I still had to refuse to sign medical papers giving hospitals the right to perform a blood transfusion in the event that it was needed . All while my wife was in labor. We were pressured , we were coerced, under threat of being disassociated not to sign those papers. The liason committee were watching us like a hawk .As a result, we were rejected by one hospital after another. I remember the doctor shouting at me that my wife's uterus could rupture at any moment if she didn't get immediate medical attention. Yet, due to utter brainwashing, I was prepared and willing to let them die. My wife and child could have died because of a stupid, fundamental view of "abstain from blood".
The GB are still untouchable and inaccessible.
There still is zero financial transparency.
They still teach 1914 and 1919. Lett said there is more proof that Jesus presence has begun in1914 than say, electricity, wind or gravity. (Paraphrasing)
The supposed changes that you list are like pealing the outer skin off of an onion and saying its no longer an onion. It still stinks like an onion, tastes like an onion, and makes your eyes water (with sadness and disappointment) like an onion.
The GB have put a teddy bear band-aid over a gunshot wound to cover it up. Nothing has changed...
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God answers prayer of paralyzed little boy
by Simon inthe answer was "no".
http://www.theonion.com/article/god-answers-prayers-of-paralyzed-little-boy-475.
obviously it's the onion so it's satirical but it got me thinking how the religious view prayer and god.
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Bonsai
I (the JW in me) used to get riled up when I'd see all these slogans and bumper stickers of "God Bless America", or "God Save the Queen". How about "God Bless the World", or "God Save the people"? But then I realized that JW's are just as guilty. They pray for God to bless this organization, or God bless them individually. How about asking God to bless all non-destructive organizations and help them to find truth? How about praying for all charities and humanitarian efforts? God always becomes a tool for one's individual convenience. -
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Damned if they do, Damned if they don't
by FusionTheism ini see an attitude among some people here which is not very helpful.
i can understand it, but still, it's not constructive or helpful.. if you condemn the society for not changing, but then you also condemn them when they do change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the society to ever want to change for the better?.
also, what does that attitude look like to current witnesses who are having doubts?.
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Bonsai
SimonSays, I love it when you post. I'm glad there are people like you in the world. Sometimes I lament that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Sometimes I wish I had a higher I.Q.. Sometimes I wish I could write more eloquently and express my thoughts more clearly. But then people like you post for all to see, and I feel so much better about myself.
What the frick does what Catholics do or don't do have anything to do with this thread? Very few of us are Catholics. I don't care what Catholics do. I care about what our grandoise magnificent seven claim to do. I also care about them righting the wrongs because my family and loved ones are involved.
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Damned if they do, Damned if they don't
by FusionTheism ini see an attitude among some people here which is not very helpful.
i can understand it, but still, it's not constructive or helpful.. if you condemn the society for not changing, but then you also condemn them when they do change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the society to ever want to change for the better?.
also, what does that attitude look like to current witnesses who are having doubts?.
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Bonsai
I feel I've been respectful to your thread. I've spent time and thought to answer your questions as best I can. I'm eagerly awaiting your feed back. -
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Damned if they do, Damned if they don't
by FusionTheism ini see an attitude among some people here which is not very helpful.
i can understand it, but still, it's not constructive or helpful.. if you condemn the society for not changing, but then you also condemn them when they do change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the society to ever want to change for the better?.
also, what does that attitude look like to current witnesses who are having doubts?.
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Bonsai
To the people with this attitude: What exactly is it that you WANT the Society to do?
If they really are the only spiritual leaders that are enjoying god's blessing and backing, if they really are the appointed faithful and discreet slave class, then I think it would behoove them to show genuine humility and honesty with their sheep. I'd like them to have a press conference to a worldwide audience admitting their mistakes and the mistakes of previous administrations. I'd like them to acknowledge the hurt they've caused. I'd like them to own up to becoming a U.N. NGO. I'd like them to admit their policies handling the sex abuse cases were lacking. I'd like them to take off their pinky rings, roll off their rolexes, stop living in their ivory towers, stop building plush, posh multi-million dollar headquarters. Oh, and I'd like them to go out into the real world and get a job!
Jesus was a carpenter. Paul was a tent maker. Peter was a fisherman. Luke was a physician. What work do the GB do to sustain themselves? I know, they go on broadcasts asking for your hard earned money and for your kid's ice cream money. SMH
I'd like an open press conference once a month where they publicly answer people's questions and give people access to why they changed a certain policy or came to a certain conclusion in regards to a new doctrine or light. I'd like financial transparency and over all accountability for...everything.
If they do those things, then quite possibly I will once again feel proud to be a part of this organization.
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Damned if they do, Damned if they don't
by FusionTheism ini see an attitude among some people here which is not very helpful.
i can understand it, but still, it's not constructive or helpful.. if you condemn the society for not changing, but then you also condemn them when they do change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the society to ever want to change for the better?.
also, what does that attitude look like to current witnesses who are having doubts?.
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Bonsai
And when they recently have admitted to errors and say they've been wrong in big ways in the past, some accuse them of having some secret conspiracy theory motive behind it.
In my case, I don't accuse them of some big conspiracy, but it has turned me off big time that they have NEVER EVER apologized for their mistakes. Even recently they could have humbly apologized for throwing types/anti-types teachings down people's throats that nobody understood. They could have apologized for "digging too deep" and confusing people. Admitting to error and apologizing for a costly error are two very different animals.
When I made mistakes in my life time, I've had to get on my knees, with genuine tears rolling down my eyes I begged for forgiveness from elders. I've had to tell men things that were really none of their business, but I wanted to show my humility and genuine sorrow, regret for what I had done. I had to apologize to others involved for hurting them or stumbling them. I did it because the faithful slave in their publications told me that that is the only way to show repentance and make wrong the right.
When have your "faithful" and "discreet" slave ever done that when they were guilty of stumbling their sheep or exposed for teaching mis-truths, or exposed for deceptively misquoting others to force their points across to others?
The level of hypocrisy has been and continues to be unabatedly appalling.
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It's My Turn
by OneFingerSalute inwell i finally got the, "we would like to stop by with the circus oversneer and have an encouraging visit.
would ---------day be good, at say -----------?".
it'll probably be a pretty dull visit with the entire conversation being only one way.
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Bonsai
That happened to me as well two month into the fade. I told the elder to his face: "Don't bother. I won't be home when you and him come."
Well they came anyway and thankfully I was out at the time. I'm thinking that during the next C.O. visit I might just let them in and lay my cards on the table. I'm so tired of this shit...
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What triggered your doubts / awakening?
by Tornintwo ini am sort of new here, used a different username for a while but things got 'difficult' at home so i've since been lurking.... what i would be really interested to know, if you don't mind sharing, is what it was that triggered your doubts and initial research which led to awakening, was it a bad experience, injustice, changed doctrine?
for me, it was seeing mistreatment of young ones in the congregation, they're under so much pressure and as soon as they go even slightly astray they are shunned, either informally (as bad associations which pushes them further into the 'world') or formally - with elders dying to throw the book at them so they even lose their family.... ...then reading about child abuse issues in the press.... ...which led me to silentlambs.
...then jw facts, this forum and coc, wham!
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Bonsai
My doubts began with the reinstatement arrangement. I wasn't so much bothered by the disfellowshipping arrangement at the time. However, the process to come back into "the truth" seemed excessively punitive and a form of cruel and unusual punishment. For years on end i would see different ones sitting in the back in assigned seats (Yes, that's right. In the country I live in they actually are assigned where to sit!) being treated as if they were quarantined. My heart went out to them as they were shunned every meeting, yet they continued to come for more punishment week after week, month after month. I checked the bible and ran into JWfacts and realized there was no biblical support for such a cruel arrangement.
The second thing that got the ball rolling was the earthquakes and Tsunamis that killed hundreds of thousands over the last 11 years. To me, God is the only one who knew they would happen. He has the power to show his love/mercy and warn people or stop the earthquake all together. Yet he didn't intervene as children and babies were crushed or drowned.
I remember clearly the tsunami of 2004 (as I was living very close to the nations that were devastated by it.) At first I was actually excited. This is a clear sign that we are living at the end of the last days! Then as I saw the level of suffering and death, I just got angrier and angrier that our loving god did nothing to help. I could no longer fault people for being atheist or agnostic and that really affected my ministry. After that, the small stream of doubts steadily grew into a raging roaring river that swept away everything that I had held to be true.
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A big hello and thank you
by iwasblind ini just wanted to introduce myself and say a big hello to all of my mentally diseased friends.. i say friends because i have been lurking for some time so it feels like home (us lurkers are a bit scared and cautious so it takes a while).
i won't bore you with too many details, but i am a born in, currently serving as the cobe of a congregation.
my wife and i have pioneered for the last 10 years and were shaken awake by that ridiculous 15th july 2013 wt about the generation and 1914.. my wife who is much smarter than me has questioned for years.
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Bonsai
Thanks for posting. Your situation must be incredibly hard right now. Being still in and a COBE to boot must be like being a father to an extremely dysfunctional family that often hurts you, yet you love them which makes it hard to let go " of your flock."
In my case, for my own mental sanity, I walked away from it all - with my family in tow - months ago and never went back. It must still be a shock to many people in that circuit. I did it though, because the org. has to know that they are overstepping their authority and it will not be tolerated.
Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (Matt. 11:29) I found no rest for my soul in that organization, just a cold, steel, rusting yoke that was breaking my spine and my mind.